boy theres always an excuse with you huh?
I didnt read it, your question marks are hurting my eyes?!Your boring,
your exposing me for the fraud I truely am!
Fine, stick you head in the sand and keeping chanting la, la, la.It'll all be over shortly chubb-rock.
swankaman
Saddam Hussein gave less support to terrorists than our own government. If his history with "terrorists" is reason for his ouster, then by gum what are we doing with one American administration after another who give them greater support?
Could you please cite a few examples instead of a blanket statement?Or are we still talking about the Nixon Administration here?
Now answer a question of mine. Since your lineage clearly makes you a great patriot, what do you say to Section 802 of the PATRIOT which calls all infractions against the state (like, say a parking ticket) an act of terrorism? What do you say to the further legislation that calls for terrorist crimes to be automatically punished by death, or life in a forced labor camp?
So let me first say Im no patriot, Im a regualr joe, my Grandad and uncle (a lifelong pacifist who served despite his convictions) are heroes and great patriots.Are you telling me in no uncertain terms that you support "rights" for people like Mossaui?Should Saddam be held accountable or does he get a free pass cause you hate bush?Personally I think a person who is planning, aiding or in any way partcipating in the harm of Americans (or our allies)should be dealt with as severely as possible.Death automatically? not sure but; if we had caught Atta and some of his Boys beforehand with knowledge of his intent, YES.Forced labor camp sounds good to me for the likes of those who wish to blow up others and remove heads from their bodies?Its only fair right?
What do you think of the suspension of habeus corpus throughout the land? Or, to keep in Latin, the discarding of posse comitatus so federal armed forces can now police our streets?
So you support Michael Moore (if Im reading you right..) but you want a crazed bunch or NRAers on the streets in the form of a militia?Hmmmm I wonder how the local Mosque would feel about that!?As opposed to the proper authorities?Police, National Gaurd, Highway Patrol, ect..You cant have it both ways Richard, either you support gun control or you dont?Personally I think that too many americans allready have their own guns and your little mental picture of a massive government door to door gun seizure is a bit ambitious.I really dont think people who arent trained to be policemen (or that type of job) should be put in such a position of responsibility; not fair to anyone.Like in Iraq.
What do you think of secret arrests?
Can you tell me of any?Just kidding.I dont know that I support that, but if the high value target may be "turned" or somehow the release of his capture (or detetion) could cause Americans or our allies to be put in danger, Id be ok with it to a certain degree..(each case is different and deserves its own deliberation by proper authorites)Not a perfect answer Im sure but..
What do you think of being forced to answer any question posed by the police?
What problems do you have with the police?What do you have to hide?Ive been pulled over and never had a single instance where I even considered NOT answering the questions.Do you watch cops?They know when your being dishonest most of the time and anyone who refuses to state their name or a search of their vehicle must have something to hide?9 times outta 10 it turns up that the cops were right, odd isnt it?Thats all I can tell you, what do you think, they want your bank code or something?are they wipping out old Trig problems on you or what? "How far is to the moon Richard!?"
What do you think of "free-speech" zones?
Do you have any sense of safety for the public officials or police officers?Do you think all of the police can keep say 100,000 people peaceful at a potentially combatitive gathering?The people could overrun the cops easily if it were planned well.This day and age, you have to be careful and I think its naive to think a few hundred cops (compared to 100k)can maintian a sensible level of safety when you have so many people who are willing to harm officers of the law and government officials at some of these rallys.
How about torture and Rumsfeld's Orwellian "double think"? How 'bout that photo of Don shaking hands with Hussein from like '86 when Rummy was representing a big CHEMICAL WEAPONS SELLER?
Not much to defend here.I concur, its ugly, bad in the worst way and I think Rumsfield himself knows that.
Is this what your forefathers fought for?
No, my forefathers fought for freedom; it aint free by the way, in case you believe otherwise.
Why are you fighting an Arab bogeyman when you should be fighting for the democratic legacy of America?
This is the statement that bothers me the most.You have a well documented plethora of information to prove what you are saying is wrong.Boogeyman?I dare say that is being insensitive to the victims of terrorists globally and should be striken from your future references in conjunction with a real war where many people were killed by these boogeymen.
I hope i have in some way answered your questions and tried to be as honest as possible in my stance.Instead of posting insults and childish BS when talking about an issue I say i "care" about like some folks.Ive never said I support Bush 100%.I dont.Is America perfect?No way!I thnk we try sometimes to make everyone happy and that is impossible.The other thing that bothers me is that people are getting more information than ever and its never enough?For example, people questioned Bushs' military record.He opened the books.You have a MOVIE released by a guy who openly states its to affect the election and may or may not be factual?!You have an entire 911 panel investigating his actions.Not to mention the world media.You have Dubya conceding many mistakes, admitting, he may have been mis-informed?Russia even mentioned lately they warned about WMDs.The UN stated recently that the weapons were moved to Syria before the war.Since your so big on conspiracy theories how come you dont mention the Tim McVeigh 3rd member of possibly arab decent?You believe almost any thing that fits into your neat little anti government package, and everything that doesnt?You dismiss or avoid.Not a word of dissapproval of terrorsim against our countrymen.Not a single word of the Iraqi progress, not a word about the handover, and then you take the stance that the guy being beheaded is somehow equated to a cow who is slaughtered?Sorry but that is not acceptable.
Pearl Harbor faked or somehow staged?get real...
swankaman
Switch on your few remaining brain cells and try to pay attention, my narrow-minded warmonger friend. Short posts, I read. 2000-word paranoid Limbaughesque tirades, I skim for interesting points, which makes your raving theses a breeze.
So you want people to answer questions but then you dont read the results?TYPICAL!You really are a Bulls**t artist arent you?You crack me up!
I guess credibilty isnt important to you thus your on going deflective nature.
Hey go enlist!
I allready did how bout you?
Well, go re-enlist!Your a liar you never served!
Hey here a pic of me in my BDUs!What about you?
Uhhhh,so what, your stoopid!Here look at this cartoon!
Hey what about dead americans?Did you ever serve? (i5 posts later an answer)
OH big freking deal I never served!
Hey what about Saddam killing all those Iraqi Civilians you care so much about?
Oh BTW I didnt read your answers so whatever...
Yeah your credibilty is thru the roof there Harvey.You are a true exercise in futility, a useful idiot.Since you hate the rich what do you think about Kerrys wife being worth a billion dollars?Boy theres a guy looking out for the "common man" Im taking up a collection to buy you another brain cell, the one you have must be lonely.
swankaman
See? That's much better. When you keep your angry childish rants succinct, then I can spare the time to read them. When you ridiculously spew on and on like a deranged crank, your posts are still good for a chuckle - to skim over the bile and count the exclamation marks - but I can't be bothered to wade through too much stupid nonsense. Cheerio!
You know you make a remarkable case for anyone wanting to enact Eugenics laws.Its seems you've retained a personality disorder that will doom you to die friendless and a virgin (so it all works out in the end)
Chow! (Im sure you understand THAT!)
swankaman
p.s. no comments on the richest member of congress huh?Delicious!
Swank, I'm sorry that you feel so ashamed of your own non-combat service that you instantly applied my chickenhawk reference to yourself. Maybe if you didn't feel so guilty about your own Dubya-esque service, you wouldn't be so giddy about real soldiers marching to their deaths in Iraq. Do yourself a favor and re-enlist. Ask for the most dangerous missions: preferably suicide missions. You're sure to return to your inbred family with a clear conscience. :)
As fascinating as it is exchanging personal insults, I'd prefer to discuss the issue. Would someone who isn't a babbling maniac care to get us back on track?
Oh wait scratch that you havent addressed a damn thing!I can play nice, I can get mean, whatever,
BRING IT ON!
You seem to dig throwing big words and names around, whats the matter cant take it?Connect the dots peabrain http://trojanhorseshoes.blogfodder.net/archives/009311.html
Im sure you wont read it in your everlasting attempt to sidestep the real issues and make it a personal battle.whatever, its all good!
Heres a clue attention medicant, when you debate someone,
MIX IN SOME FACTS!
Kerry the richest member of congress? anything?(3rd times a charm)
swankaman
--I've talked to enough cabbies to know that Islamists view jewlery as an affront to g-d and don't wear it--
and supposedly Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance and Murder is also prohibited is it not?So Islamists can buy gold but not wear it? (do you know Muslims are being instructed to buy gold and not use dollars to weaken the american economy?)Do you know anything of the Mahdi?Do you know about the return to Andelusia?I'll bet you do.
swankaman
Well Osama is real and so is Al Queerda you dont believe so check out some of the beheading videos for a glimpse of how "real" they are...
Swankaman
Yeah, I saw those videos. At first, I thought, "wow, that's awful!" Then I thought of seeing cows slaughtered and how even the most controlled cut gushes blood, how only the most skilled hand can do it off in one blow. And I looked again (being perverse -like everyone else) and I noticed gold jewlery on the killers. I've talked to enough cabbies to know that Islamists view jewlery as an affront to g-d and don't wear it. All odd, I thought. And I thought of the timing -right after our government admitted to sanctioning torture. Suspicious.
The real question I have "Swankaman" is, why are you so beholden to these people who are intent on tricking you and stealing your inborn rights?
And don't you know that every single military action in the modern era has been staged with either government foreknowledge (Pearl Harbor, the sinking of the Luisitania, Gulf War I) or active participation of the federal government (Remember the Maine?, the Gulf of Tonkin)?
I find it hard to think that "white chicks" beat "Shrek 2". I find it hard to think that anything beat Shrek 2. White chicks does look like a few laughs, but CUMMON!
I haven't seen it yet either, but I know the connections of the Bush Cabinet with the big oil and military complexes. Maybe you have to have it waved in your face. Someday folks will wake up and see that The Federal Reserve doesn't have their best interest in mind. Banks are foremost in the Federal Reserves concern. Not the average guy.
Wow, i am impressed.
Way to JUMP back on those "issues" there harvey old gal!
Someone posts a interesting link to a short (easy to read for slow people...) description/visual representation of how many people (Iraqi Citizens mind you!) were dumped into mass graves will bullet holes in their heads somewhere in the neighborhood of 300,000 actual people.No boogeymen, no "shadow warriors".
And you...
post another cartoon (that you didnt draw) after your desperate plea for help!
Keep up the fine representation of yourself, it actually IS humorous.Do you like Hip Hop?Ive got an old classic that is "fixing to" be re-released!
swankaman
Hey Harvey! (Missed you, you ol coot!)
I have a multiple choice question for you so you dont really have to write anything just answer with the corresponding letter to the ANSWER of YOUR choice?cool? (hope that wasnt too many BIG letters or questions marks 4u)
Question;
What did Saddam, Uday, Quasy and his cronies actually use the bombed out hull of a Boeing 707 Jet in the middle of the desert for?
a.) Secretly meet under armed gaurd and watch episodes of American Idol?
b.) Have a tea party complete with church hats, watercress sadwiches, Apricot tea and review the Oprah Book Clubs' book of the month?
c.) Take turns logging onto AWNs various forums and posting as a networked alias "Harvey Human"?
Wow, i am impressed.
Way to JUMP back on those "issues" there harvey old gal!
Someone posts a interesting link to a short (easy to read for slow people...) description/visual representation of how many people (Iraqi Citizens mind you!) were dumped into mass graves will bullet holes in their heads somewhere in the neighborhood of 300,000 actual people.No boogeymen, no "shadow warriors".
And you...
post another cartoon (that you didnt draw) after your desperate plea for help!
Keep up the fine representation of yourself, it actually IS humorous.Do you like Hip Hop?Ive got an old classic that is "fixing to" be re-released!
swankaman
Now, I'm a slow person... so those dots helped me "visualize" how many people 300,000 really is... and then I read in the same article "So far, the existence of about 40 graves has been confirmed" and you know what? 40 graves is a lot less than 300,000... so I'm still not completely convinced. I could pull a number out of a hat and say that's how many innocent Iraqiis Saddam killed as well... And if you read the whole of the page, including the comments (of which I didn't even need to read all) you'll find some arguments against even your bullet proof website.
But this thread is a display of why talking politics in the workplace isn't a good idea. Nobody is gonna sway. Harvey thinks you're a fool because you have a blind sense of patriotism toward a government that's so corrupt that we're almost to the point of police ransacking our houses and taking away our hard earned guns. And you think Harvey is a bastard because he has a general disregard for any human life but his own because he doesn't care that Iraqii children are shot into unmarked graves, and he doesn't give a dime to the starving Etheopians.
And that's cool... come voting time, we'll see who the crackpot is.
And now for Harvey's plea of getting us "back on track"... anyone seen Spiderman 2? The special effects were excellent.
Hello David,
I read the article and actually got a different view of it.I think the 40 is the number of actual confirmed (meaning investigated fully, I believe) of the reported 263; but anyway..
Some estimates are higher. http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html
Thats cool, thanks for at least some sort of sensible post instead of a maniacal rant.Im sorry I stooped into the same level but...i have way more respect for people who back up things they say with a bit of reference, civility or at least something intelligent to say.It aint my website and I think its just another opinion.
Opinions are like, well....
Damn this is predictable....and waaaaay too easy-
Did you at least enjoy Harveys cartoon?
swankaman
I enjoyed it all. I think you posted that Michael Moore Hates America website and that looks like an interesting film... I hope I'll have a chance to see it.
Many countries treat their citizens worse than Iraq does, so what makes Iraq so special? Why do we invade Iraq and not China or South Korea or Syria or Jordan?
1) We disarmed Iraq first, which makes a glorious invasion quite a bit easier.
2) OIL!!!
There was no good reason to start this war. Bush's humanitarian reasons are a facade. He does not care about the Iraqi people; he cares about oil and money.
Thanks to the most reckless war ever started by this country, al Qaeda and its sister organizations now have thousands of new recruits. The next time they bomb one of our cities and the people ask, "why do they hate us," you have your answer: they hate us because of George W. Bush. Bush has made our country less safe.
did that make you take me more seriously?
Just checkin!
It's all about YOU, isn't it?
Alright, I'll stray from topic long enough to address your personal insecurities.
In order for me to TAKE you seriously, you'd have to consistently ACT seriously. That would mean no ridicule and no tantrums, and stating your case in a calm, adult manner.
Good luck with that. :)
sounds like your coming to your senses (a bit) so anyway.
What do you use a bombed out jet hull of a Boeing 707 for again Harvey?
Didnt you like my multiple choice question?
as for the cartoon,I was just giving you a bit of your own back.Every thread Ive ever seen you a part of IS all about you my dear so nice try, but..
-- Ill actually address YOUR questions--
SOUTH KOREA?
They are are allies.We do have 35k troops over there "occupying them brutally" as we are so apt to do.If you meant North Korea?Again see the 35k troop deployment and extended diplomatic attempts to resolve their Nuclear aspirations.Maybe they'll start to care about their starving population first before building nukes.South Korea is allready starting to whine desperately about the possibility of reduction of the US presence.
As for Syria (who are by the way supporting the killing of Americans FYI)
i DO believe there is a fair amount of pressure being applied to them as well; diplomatically and otherwise?What? do we have to do the UNs job for them allways?See Iran
Jordan?They actually are sending troops to help us in Iraq and have been helping us in the war on terrorism (supposedly!) I dont know that thats enough but you will start to see in places like Saudi Arabia (who you forgort to mention!BTW,Can you build a church there Harvey?Do you know or care?) and Jordan start getting some terror on their own soil it suddenly starts to become more important?
China,
IMHO in aint gonna happen.We need each other way to much.There are many many reasons which I wont get into (I dont have enought time honestly) that the changes are going to have to come from within.Chinese are growing tired of their leaders and becoming more vocal in the international theatre in case you havent noticed.
Oil?
So...let me get this straight?
We invaded and occupied for the oil?
The war is over (qestionable?) so we MUST actually HAVE the oil right?
Why am I still dishing out 2 bucks a gallon?
Speaking of people who care so much about money..How come you dont hate or address Kerry?Hes rich beyond your wildest dreams! and Clinton sold 35 million dollars worth of books last weekend, Im sure he made a hefty penny!
see ya!
swankaman
p.s. will you be burning a US flag this weekend in your endless attempt to piss on the service on "non combat" soldiers?It wouldnt surprise me.
It only takes moments to give you your daily spanking and most of the time you do it for me yourself,I actually CANT type fast enough with all the ammo I have to dismiss your tired little case.
Loser!
swankman
"Loser"? You nitwit. We're talking about the deaths of a thousand American soldiers and 10,000 Iraqi civilians and all you can think about is your own pride.
You are a vain, disgusting thing.
Here's my "tired little case" in a nutshell.
There was no good reason for this war.
Bush hasn't presented a reasonable case (following the case which was clouded in lies) and neither have you.
Tell ya what, we'll see whose pride and vanity rule.I'll go away, Ill let it go.All you have to do is shut yer yap?
No insults, nothing.
Seeing as how you ALWAYS have to have the last word, I know this will be impossible for you-
enjoy your holiday!
swankaman
Well, I saw it on Saturday in at packed matinee showing--in Canada... so I'm betting it topped the box office here too.
Someone told me after they saw it that the film was less 'ground-breaking' than they expected... and that was sort of my sentiment too. If you've been following the flip-side of the Bush administration story at all for the last year, most of what Moore presents isn't that startling.
Bush has oil interests in Middle East? Yup.
The Bush family has ties to the bin Ladens? Yup.
Bush more interested in bombing the stuffing out of Iraq than doing something productive with Afghanistan? Yup.
Some of the details were interesting but the crux of the argument didn't contain anything particularly new.
And yes, Moore does tend to put his own gloss on things and he probably didn't need to given the nature of the material... but really, Fox News puts its own gloss on things... as does the White House... people are being manipulated by the media all the time only most of the time they don't realize what the agenda is. Moore at least makes his agenda very clear--Bush bad. Don't vote for Bush.
If this film sparks some kind of debate... if it makes people even a little skeptical of the stuff that their governments have been carefully spoon-feeding them, then personally I am a happy, happy camper.
I'm def trying to go see it tonight. I tried over the weekend but failed miserably. I saw his last two films and thought they were both good. Hope this one holds up to them.
White chicks and Dodge ball look like really stupid comedies. If i had the money I'd go see white chicks tool, heard it was funy. :P
I saw it..... and i must say that the movie touched me. I am angry, frustrated and disgusted.
I don't know if the movie is all true. Since it is his movie he does make it look so. I do know i no longer want to remain ingnorant as to what my country is doing. My brother is military and I would hate to know that he died for an unjust cause. Just so that our stinkin president could make him and his friends some more money.
Right now I'm ashamed to call myself an American. I hope that one day that word will mean something good but for now i would just like to wish all our troops over there well and that they return to their families safe.
So if you where to ask me if the movie is good. I would say yes. Its a good movie and i highly recommend it. Like anything tho keep your mind open and make up your own mind.
I do know i no longer want to remain ingnorant as to what my country is doing.
I personally think that's the best outcome a movie like that can achieve... not win people over, but make them question the established line. I can tell you that the information you are looking for is out there... it's not being shown in the mainstream media, but it can be found. In a strange way, we in Canada have been lucky... we didn't follow the US into the Iraq war but we still observe the activities of the war in our own way. Like most people living in Canadian cities, I receive American television channels alongside my Canadian ones... and you only have to watch both with a critical eye to see how much the US channels are being spun.
I think that most of all is what has scared me about the current situation... that Americans may remind blind to what is happening to them because no one is able to present an alternative point of view... to encourage people to step back and debate... as long as you do that--and as long as you vote this year--I think you can still proudly call yourself an American.
My beef is with Moore. He has his own obvious agenda, which is fine. It's a free country and he has that right. And he has the cash to create and promote his opinions. But, if you are going to spin your own views, don't call it a documetary. Call it a movie.
Example: with your obviously open minds, read this article (caution: it's Fox news, so it must be wrong!). It points out just a few short comings on actual facts (by the 9/11 Commision, no less).
Listen. Give me a chunk of news footage and I can edit it to any angle. Give that same footage to another, and you'll get a different view. Good journalists will try to stay nuetral. Some will spin it...to which ever view they see fit. I watch cable, with a butt-load of diffent national and international news channels. Find a news item that they all show, and watch how differntly they are reported to you! Zowie! Same with talk radio.
It's up to you to find the actual facts. From the goverment or not. From Moore or not. From your neighbor or not.
I'm not trying to start a thread where we start pasting different url's about different points of view on the war, Moore or pudding. They're out there, go find 'em. Be open to different points of view, and debate the facts.
My beef is with Moore. He has his own obvious agenda, which is fine. It's a free country and he has that right. And he has the cash to create and promote his opinions. But, if you are going to spin your own views, don't call it a documetary. Call it a movie.
..................:D
(note: I've not seen the film but previous docs and read Stupid White Men and heard a lecture by Moore on local co-op radio.)
Moore was on Jon Stewart's show another night and makes no bones that he is unfair and that it is his opinion. I agree it is not a doc but indeed propaganda (propaganda for good imo). But those same people who you are afraid to be manipulated by clever editing are the same people manipulated by clever editing in our cutsie eyewitless news (..."And 300 were killed. Next a story of puppy who returned 500 miles...") I think Moore is fighting fire with fire when it comes to that. Agree with him or not, I admire his passion and that he seems to be the only American of his status who is not afraid to voice dissent. There are easier roads he could take like most celebrities but has chosen to put his big ass on the line to the potential detriment of his own career. I admire his integrity. And yes I believe him.
There is a group of us going tonight to see it. Fortunately, it's playing in 3 theaters in Ann Arbor so we should not have problem getting in. I'm not a fan of Michael Moore but I'm curious of the controversy. I just wish I did not have to support his cause in order to see it.... I'll post comments tomorrow.
Larry, they're censoring it over there? That's not right. I didnt know they could do that. Damn government.
...I would really like to see this movie, but something says I am going to fall asleep watching it. So I went to see Spiderman 2 instead. I like to be entertained when watching a movie, not educated. I think I will wait for the DVD. Heh.
boy theres always an excuse with you huh?
I didnt read it, your question marks are hurting my eyes?!Your boring,
your exposing me for the fraud I truely am!
Fine, stick you head in the sand and keeping chanting la, la, la.It'll all be over shortly chubb-rock.
swankaman
Saddam Hussein gave less support to terrorists than our own government. If his history with "terrorists" is reason for his ouster, then by gum what are we doing with one American administration after another who give them greater support?
Could you please cite a few examples instead of a blanket statement?Or are we still talking about the Nixon Administration here?
Now answer a question of mine. Since your lineage clearly makes you a great patriot, what do you say to Section 802 of the PATRIOT which calls all infractions against the state (like, say a parking ticket) an act of terrorism? What do you say to the further legislation that calls for terrorist crimes to be automatically punished by death, or life in a forced labor camp?
So let me first say Im no patriot, Im a regualr joe, my Grandad and uncle (a lifelong pacifist who served despite his convictions) are heroes and great patriots.Are you telling me in no uncertain terms that you support "rights" for people like Mossaui?Should Saddam be held accountable or does he get a free pass cause you hate bush?Personally I think a person who is planning, aiding or in any way partcipating in the harm of Americans (or our allies)should be dealt with as severely as possible.Death automatically? not sure but; if we had caught Atta and some of his Boys beforehand with knowledge of his intent, YES.Forced labor camp sounds good to me for the likes of those who wish to blow up others and remove heads from their bodies?Its only fair right?
What do you think of the suspension of habeus corpus throughout the land? Or, to keep in Latin, the discarding of posse comitatus so federal armed forces can now police our streets?
So you support Michael Moore (if Im reading you right..) but you want a crazed bunch or NRAers on the streets in the form of a militia?Hmmmm I wonder how the local Mosque would feel about that!?As opposed to the proper authorities?Police, National Gaurd, Highway Patrol, ect..You cant have it both ways Richard, either you support gun control or you dont?Personally I think that too many americans allready have their own guns and your little mental picture of a massive government door to door gun seizure is a bit ambitious.I really dont think people who arent trained to be policemen (or that type of job) should be put in such a position of responsibility; not fair to anyone.Like in Iraq.
What do you think of secret arrests?
Can you tell me of any?Just kidding.I dont know that I support that, but if the high value target may be "turned" or somehow the release of his capture (or detetion) could cause Americans or our allies to be put in danger, Id be ok with it to a certain degree..(each case is different and deserves its own deliberation by proper authorites)Not a perfect answer Im sure but..
What do you think of being forced to answer any question posed by the police?
What problems do you have with the police?What do you have to hide?Ive been pulled over and never had a single instance where I even considered NOT answering the questions.Do you watch cops?They know when your being dishonest most of the time and anyone who refuses to state their name or a search of their vehicle must have something to hide?9 times outta 10 it turns up that the cops were right, odd isnt it?Thats all I can tell you, what do you think, they want your bank code or something?are they wipping out old Trig problems on you or what? "How far is to the moon Richard!?"
What do you think of "free-speech" zones?
Do you have any sense of safety for the public officials or police officers?Do you think all of the police can keep say 100,000 people peaceful at a potentially combatitive gathering?The people could overrun the cops easily if it were planned well.This day and age, you have to be careful and I think its naive to think a few hundred cops (compared to 100k)can maintian a sensible level of safety when you have so many people who are willing to harm officers of the law and government officials at some of these rallys.
How about torture and Rumsfeld's Orwellian "double think"? How 'bout that photo of Don shaking hands with Hussein from like '86 when Rummy was representing a big CHEMICAL WEAPONS SELLER?
Not much to defend here.I concur, its ugly, bad in the worst way and I think Rumsfield himself knows that.
Is this what your forefathers fought for?
No, my forefathers fought for freedom; it aint free by the way, in case you believe otherwise.
Why are you fighting an Arab bogeyman when you should be fighting for the democratic legacy of America?
This is the statement that bothers me the most.You have a well documented plethora of information to prove what you are saying is wrong.Boogeyman?I dare say that is being insensitive to the victims of terrorists globally and should be striken from your future references in conjunction with a real war where many people were killed by these boogeymen.
I hope i have in some way answered your questions and tried to be as honest as possible in my stance.Instead of posting insults and childish BS when talking about an issue I say i "care" about like some folks.Ive never said I support Bush 100%.I dont.Is America perfect?No way!I thnk we try sometimes to make everyone happy and that is impossible.The other thing that bothers me is that people are getting more information than ever and its never enough?For example, people questioned Bushs' military record.He opened the books.You have a MOVIE released by a guy who openly states its to affect the election and may or may not be factual?!You have an entire 911 panel investigating his actions.Not to mention the world media.You have Dubya conceding many mistakes, admitting, he may have been mis-informed?Russia even mentioned lately they warned about WMDs.The UN stated recently that the weapons were moved to Syria before the war.Since your so big on conspiracy theories how come you dont mention the Tim McVeigh 3rd member of possibly arab decent?You believe almost any thing that fits into your neat little anti government package, and everything that doesnt?You dismiss or avoid.Not a word of dissapproval of terrorsim against our countrymen.Not a single word of the Iraqi progress, not a word about the handover, and then you take the stance that the guy being beheaded is somehow equated to a cow who is slaughtered?Sorry but that is not acceptable.
Pearl Harbor faked or somehow staged?get real...
swankaman
Well, that's my job!
Hey brighteyes,
that was in the list of your excuses Moore-on!
swankaman
Switch on your few remaining brain cells and try to pay attention, my narrow-minded warmonger friend. Short posts, I read. 2000-word paranoid Limbaughesque tirades, I skim for interesting points, which makes your raving theses a breeze.
So you want people to answer questions but then you dont read the results?TYPICAL!You really are a Bulls**t artist arent you?You crack me up!
I guess credibilty isnt important to you thus your on going deflective nature.
Hey go enlist!
I allready did how bout you?
Well, go re-enlist!Your a liar you never served!
Hey here a pic of me in my BDUs!What about you?
Uhhhh,so what, your stoopid!Here look at this cartoon!
Hey what about dead americans?Did you ever serve? (i5 posts later an answer)
OH big freking deal I never served!
Hey what about Saddam killing all those Iraqi Civilians you care so much about?
Oh BTW I didnt read your answers so whatever...
Yeah your credibilty is thru the roof there Harvey.You are a true exercise in futility, a useful idiot.Since you hate the rich what do you think about Kerrys wife being worth a billion dollars?Boy theres a guy looking out for the "common man" Im taking up a collection to buy you another brain cell, the one you have must be lonely.
swankaman
See? That's much better. When you keep your angry childish rants succinct, then I can spare the time to read them. When you ridiculously spew on and on like a deranged crank, your posts are still good for a chuckle - to skim over the bile and count the exclamation marks - but I can't be bothered to wade through too much stupid nonsense. Cheerio!
You know you make a remarkable case for anyone wanting to enact Eugenics laws.Its seems you've retained a personality disorder that will doom you to die friendless and a virgin (so it all works out in the end)
Chow! (Im sure you understand THAT!)
swankaman
p.s. no comments on the richest member of congress huh?Delicious!
Swank, I'm sorry that you feel so ashamed of your own non-combat service that you instantly applied my chickenhawk reference to yourself. Maybe if you didn't feel so guilty about your own Dubya-esque service, you wouldn't be so giddy about real soldiers marching to their deaths in Iraq. Do yourself a favor and re-enlist. Ask for the most dangerous missions: preferably suicide missions. You're sure to return to your inbred family with a clear conscience. :)
As fascinating as it is exchanging personal insults, I'd prefer to discuss the issue. Would someone who isn't a babbling maniac care to get us back on track?
Oh wait scratch that you havent addressed a damn thing!I can play nice, I can get mean, whatever,
BRING IT ON!
You seem to dig throwing big words and names around, whats the matter cant take it?Connect the dots peabrain
http://trojanhorseshoes.blogfodder.net/archives/009311.html
Im sure you wont read it in your everlasting attempt to sidestep the real issues and make it a personal battle.whatever, its all good!
Heres a clue attention medicant, when you debate someone,
MIX IN SOME FACTS!
Kerry the richest member of congress? anything?(3rd times a charm)
swankaman
I have to share this hilarious cartoon with the rest of the class.
Everytime Swank posts, I'm reminded of it. :D
Hmm, the cartoon may not be showing up. Here's the link:
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0425/sutton.php
bonus cartoon!
--I've talked to enough cabbies to know that Islamists view jewlery as an affront to g-d and don't wear it--
and supposedly Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance and Murder is also prohibited is it not?So Islamists can buy gold but not wear it? (do you know Muslims are being instructed to buy gold and not use dollars to weaken the american economy?)Do you know anything of the Mahdi?Do you know about the return to Andelusia?I'll bet you do.
swankaman
Yeah, I saw those videos. At first, I thought, "wow, that's awful!" Then I thought of seeing cows slaughtered and how even the most controlled cut gushes blood, how only the most skilled hand can do it off in one blow. And I looked again (being perverse -like everyone else) and I noticed gold jewlery on the killers. I've talked to enough cabbies to know that Islamists view jewlery as an affront to g-d and don't wear it. All odd, I thought. And I thought of the timing -right after our government admitted to sanctioning torture. Suspicious.
Here's an article on the beheading.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FE22Ak03.html
The real question I have "Swankaman" is, why are you so beholden to these people who are intent on tricking you and stealing your inborn rights?
And don't you know that every single military action in the modern era has been staged with either government foreknowledge (Pearl Harbor, the sinking of the Luisitania, Gulf War I) or active participation of the federal government (Remember the Maine?, the Gulf of Tonkin)?
Being blinded by propaganda is not patriotism.
I find it hard to think that "white chicks" beat "Shrek 2". I find it hard to think that anything beat Shrek 2. White chicks does look like a few laughs, but CUMMON!
Adam
I haven't seen it yet either, but I know the connections of the Bush Cabinet with the big oil and military complexes. Maybe you have to have it waved in your face. Someday folks will wake up and see that The Federal Reserve doesn't have their best interest in mind. Banks are foremost in the Federal Reserves concern. Not the average guy.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
Wow, i am impressed.
Way to JUMP back on those "issues" there harvey old gal!
Someone posts a interesting link to a short (easy to read for slow people...) description/visual representation of how many people (Iraqi Citizens mind you!) were dumped into mass graves will bullet holes in their heads somewhere in the neighborhood of 300,000 actual people.No boogeymen, no "shadow warriors".
And you...
post another cartoon (that you didnt draw) after your desperate plea for help!
Keep up the fine representation of yourself, it actually IS humorous.Do you like Hip Hop?Ive got an old classic that is "fixing to" be re-released!
swankaman
Hey Harvey! (Missed you, you ol coot!)
I have a multiple choice question for you so you dont really have to write anything just answer with the corresponding letter to the ANSWER of YOUR choice?cool? (hope that wasnt too many BIG letters or questions marks 4u)
Question;
What did Saddam, Uday, Quasy and his cronies actually use the bombed out hull of a Boeing 707 Jet in the middle of the desert for?
a.) Secretly meet under armed gaurd and watch episodes of American Idol?
b.) Have a tea party complete with church hats, watercress sadwiches, Apricot tea and review the Oprah Book Clubs' book of the month?
c.) Take turns logging onto AWNs various forums and posting as a networked alias "Harvey Human"?
d.) Train hijackers?
e.) all of the above...
10 seconds.....
Swankaman
I'm not Harvey Human, but I'll have to go with A... God I love that show. "She bang! She bang! Oh baby and she move! She move!"
Now, I'm a slow person... so those dots helped me "visualize" how many people 300,000 really is... and then I read in the same article "So far, the existence of about 40 graves has been confirmed" and you know what? 40 graves is a lot less than 300,000... so I'm still not completely convinced. I could pull a number out of a hat and say that's how many innocent Iraqiis Saddam killed as well... And if you read the whole of the page, including the comments (of which I didn't even need to read all) you'll find some arguments against even your bullet proof website.
But this thread is a display of why talking politics in the workplace isn't a good idea. Nobody is gonna sway. Harvey thinks you're a fool because you have a blind sense of patriotism toward a government that's so corrupt that we're almost to the point of police ransacking our houses and taking away our hard earned guns. And you think Harvey is a bastard because he has a general disregard for any human life but his own because he doesn't care that Iraqii children are shot into unmarked graves, and he doesn't give a dime to the starving Etheopians.
And that's cool... come voting time, we'll see who the crackpot is.
And now for Harvey's plea of getting us "back on track"... anyone seen Spiderman 2? The special effects were excellent.
Hello David,
I read the article and actually got a different view of it.I think the 40 is the number of actual confirmed (meaning investigated fully, I believe) of the reported 263; but anyway..
Some estimates are higher.
http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html
Thats cool, thanks for at least some sort of sensible post instead of a maniacal rant.Im sorry I stooped into the same level but...i have way more respect for people who back up things they say with a bit of reference, civility or at least something intelligent to say.It aint my website and I think its just another opinion.
Opinions are like, well....
Damn this is predictable....and waaaaay too easy-
Did you at least enjoy Harveys cartoon?
swankaman
I enjoyed it all. I think you posted that Michael Moore Hates America website and that looks like an interesting film... I hope I'll have a chance to see it.
Many countries treat their citizens worse than Iraq does, so what makes Iraq so special? Why do we invade Iraq and not China or South Korea or Syria or Jordan?
1) We disarmed Iraq first, which makes a glorious invasion quite a bit easier.
2) OIL!!!
There was no good reason to start this war. Bush's humanitarian reasons are a facade. He does not care about the Iraqi people; he cares about oil and money.
Thanks to the most reckless war ever started by this country, al Qaeda and its sister organizations now have thousands of new recruits. The next time they bomb one of our cities and the people ask, "why do they hate us," you have your answer: they hate us because of George W. Bush. Bush has made our country less safe.
and my response to your very serious question;
swankaman
Hey, it's Detroit's favorite editorial cartoonist, Mike Thompson!
I like cartoons too!
did that make you take me more seriously?
Just checkin!
You should take note of that!
swankaman
It's all about YOU, isn't it?
Alright, I'll stray from topic long enough to address your personal insecurities.
In order for me to TAKE you seriously, you'd have to consistently ACT seriously. That would mean no ridicule and no tantrums, and stating your case in a calm, adult manner.
Good luck with that. :)
sounds like your coming to your senses (a bit) so anyway.
What do you use a bombed out jet hull of a Boeing 707 for again Harvey?
Didnt you like my multiple choice question?
as for the cartoon,I was just giving you a bit of your own back.Every thread Ive ever seen you a part of IS all about you my dear so nice try, but..
-- Ill actually address YOUR questions--
SOUTH KOREA?
They are are allies.We do have 35k troops over there "occupying them brutally" as we are so apt to do.If you meant North Korea?Again see the 35k troop deployment and extended diplomatic attempts to resolve their Nuclear aspirations.Maybe they'll start to care about their starving population first before building nukes.South Korea is allready starting to whine desperately about the possibility of reduction of the US presence.
As for Syria (who are by the way supporting the killing of Americans FYI)
i DO believe there is a fair amount of pressure being applied to them as well; diplomatically and otherwise?What? do we have to do the UNs job for them allways?See Iran
Jordan?They actually are sending troops to help us in Iraq and have been helping us in the war on terrorism (supposedly!) I dont know that thats enough but you will start to see in places like Saudi Arabia (who you forgort to mention!BTW,Can you build a church there Harvey?Do you know or care?) and Jordan start getting some terror on their own soil it suddenly starts to become more important?
China,
IMHO in aint gonna happen.We need each other way to much.There are many many reasons which I wont get into (I dont have enought time honestly) that the changes are going to have to come from within.Chinese are growing tired of their leaders and becoming more vocal in the international theatre in case you havent noticed.
Oil?
So...let me get this straight?
We invaded and occupied for the oil?
The war is over (qestionable?) so we MUST actually HAVE the oil right?
Why am I still dishing out 2 bucks a gallon?
Speaking of people who care so much about money..How come you dont hate or address Kerry?Hes rich beyond your wildest dreams! and Clinton sold 35 million dollars worth of books last weekend, Im sure he made a hefty penny!
see ya!
swankaman
p.s. will you be burning a US flag this weekend in your endless attempt to piss on the service on "non combat" soldiers?It wouldnt surprise me.
Ugh, too long again.
Unlike you, I don't want to ditch my family for an entire weekend just to argue war policy with some online stranger.
Try to be succinct or focus on one issue at a time or whatever. Your time may be worth sh*%&t, but my time is valuable.
(skimming: oops, meant North Korea, obviously)
It only takes moments to give you your daily spanking and most of the time you do it for me yourself,I actually CANT type fast enough with all the ammo I have to dismiss your tired little case.
Loser!
swankman
"Loser"? You nitwit. We're talking about the deaths of a thousand American soldiers and 10,000 Iraqi civilians and all you can think about is your own pride.
You are a vain, disgusting thing.
Here's my "tired little case" in a nutshell.
There was no good reason for this war.
Bush hasn't presented a reasonable case (following the case which was clouded in lies) and neither have you.
Tell ya what, we'll see whose pride and vanity rule.I'll go away, Ill let it go.All you have to do is shut yer yap?
No insults, nothing.
Seeing as how you ALWAYS have to have the last word, I know this will be impossible for you-
enjoy your holiday!
swankaman
Okay, no more insults.
friends again :D
At least for now!and for the sake of the rest of the forum members!Peace,
swankaman
Here's where I got my info from, Brad:
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/movies/box_office.php
Pretty good job for only being shown in 868 theaters. (White Chicks needed 2726 theaters for nearly the same returns.)
It also didn't do too bad in the reviews department.
Well, I saw it on Saturday in at packed matinee showing--in Canada... so I'm betting it topped the box office here too.
Someone told me after they saw it that the film was less 'ground-breaking' than they expected... and that was sort of my sentiment too. If you've been following the flip-side of the Bush administration story at all for the last year, most of what Moore presents isn't that startling.
Bush has oil interests in Middle East? Yup.
The Bush family has ties to the bin Ladens? Yup.
Bush more interested in bombing the stuffing out of Iraq than doing something productive with Afghanistan? Yup.
Some of the details were interesting but the crux of the argument didn't contain anything particularly new.
And yes, Moore does tend to put his own gloss on things and he probably didn't need to given the nature of the material... but really, Fox News puts its own gloss on things... as does the White House... people are being manipulated by the media all the time only most of the time they don't realize what the agenda is. Moore at least makes his agenda very clear--Bush bad. Don't vote for Bush.
If this film sparks some kind of debate... if it makes people even a little skeptical of the stuff that their governments have been carefully spoon-feeding them, then personally I am a happy, happy camper.
I'm def trying to go see it tonight. I tried over the weekend but failed miserably. I saw his last two films and thought they were both good. Hope this one holds up to them.
White chicks and Dodge ball look like really stupid comedies. If i had the money I'd go see white chicks tool, heard it was funy. :P
http://lionelordaz.com/
http://lionos.blogspot.com/
Hello.
The closest cities are Atlanta, GA (242 miles) and Charleston, SC. 90 miles.
F911 took in more in one weekend than Bowling for Columbine did during it's entire run.
What did folks think of it?
Thanks.
Larry
web site
http://tooninst[URL=http://tooninstitute.awn.com]itute.awn.com
[/URL]blog:
[U]http://www.awm.com/blogs/always-animated
[/U] email:
larry.lauria@gmail.com
I saw it..... and i must say that the movie touched me. I am angry, frustrated and disgusted.
I don't know if the movie is all true. Since it is his movie he does make it look so. I do know i no longer want to remain ingnorant as to what my country is doing. My brother is military and I would hate to know that he died for an unjust cause. Just so that our stinkin president could make him and his friends some more money.
Right now I'm ashamed to call myself an American. I hope that one day that word will mean something good but for now i would just like to wish all our troops over there well and that they return to their families safe.
So if you where to ask me if the movie is good. I would say yes. Its a good movie and i highly recommend it. Like anything tho keep your mind open and make up your own mind.
Good times i guess.
http://lionelordaz.com/
http://lionos.blogspot.com/
I personally think that's the best outcome a movie like that can achieve... not win people over, but make them question the established line. I can tell you that the information you are looking for is out there... it's not being shown in the mainstream media, but it can be found. In a strange way, we in Canada have been lucky... we didn't follow the US into the Iraq war but we still observe the activities of the war in our own way. Like most people living in Canadian cities, I receive American television channels alongside my Canadian ones... and you only have to watch both with a critical eye to see how much the US channels are being spun.
I think that most of all is what has scared me about the current situation... that Americans may remind blind to what is happening to them because no one is able to present an alternative point of view... to encourage people to step back and debate... as long as you do that--and as long as you vote this year--I think you can still proudly call yourself an American.
And be open to different views.
My beef is with Moore. He has his own obvious agenda, which is fine. It's a free country and he has that right. And he has the cash to create and promote his opinions. But, if you are going to spin your own views, don't call it a documetary. Call it a movie.
Example: with your obviously open minds, read this article (caution: it's Fox news, so it must be wrong!). It points out just a few short comings on actual facts (by the 9/11 Commision, no less).
Listen. Give me a chunk of news footage and I can edit it to any angle. Give that same footage to another, and you'll get a different view. Good journalists will try to stay nuetral. Some will spin it...to which ever view they see fit. I watch cable, with a butt-load of diffent national and international news channels. Find a news item that they all show, and watch how differntly they are reported to you! Zowie! Same with talk radio.
It's up to you to find the actual facts. From the goverment or not. From Moore or not. From your neighbor or not.
I'm not trying to start a thread where we start pasting different url's about different points of view on the war, Moore or pudding. They're out there, go find 'em. Be open to different points of view, and debate the facts.
Thats all good, yes?
Just my $0.02 US.
Now, back to work!
Cheers!
Splatman :D
SPLAT digital
(note: I've not seen the film but previous docs and read Stupid White Men and heard a lecture by Moore on local co-op radio.)
Moore was on Jon Stewart's show another night and makes no bones that he is unfair and that it is his opinion. I agree it is not a doc but indeed propaganda (propaganda for good imo). But those same people who you are afraid to be manipulated by clever editing are the same people manipulated by clever editing in our cutsie eyewitless news (..."And 300 were killed. Next a story of puppy who returned 500 miles...") I think Moore is fighting fire with fire when it comes to that. Agree with him or not, I admire his passion and that he seems to be the only American of his status who is not afraid to voice dissent. There are easier roads he could take like most celebrities but has chosen to put his big ass on the line to the potential detriment of his own career. I admire his integrity. And yes I believe him.
There is a group of us going tonight to see it. Fortunately, it's playing in 3 theaters in Ann Arbor so we should not have problem getting in. I'm not a fan of Michael Moore but I'm curious of the controversy. I just wish I did not have to support his cause in order to see it.... I'll post comments tomorrow.
Larry, they're censoring it over there? That's not right. I didnt know they could do that. Damn government.
...I would really like to see this movie, but something says I am going to fall asleep watching it. So I went to see Spiderman 2 instead. I like to be entertained when watching a movie, not educated. I think I will wait for the DVD. Heh.
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