Thanks a bunch guys. It seems that I should have worded my original post more carefully. A career in animation isn't something that I decided upon through reasoning or drawing from a hat. Believe me, I can see how much patience and determination it will take me to reach a level where I am fit to be hired just from the sheer awesomeness of the work that the people I look up to are capable of producing, but I realized after having gone through a massive change, that to be able to create art is a deep-seated desire of mine, and I've been oblivious to these feelings up until (although I've toyed with various creative persuits, I was always too confused and doubtful to ever sit down and focus my energy on them fully). There is no alternative if I am to be happy.
I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to get a job, and then some, but I realise that all the determination in the world wont help me if I don't carefuly plan the rough order in which I learn things, and that it's never a good idea to get over-excited and jump into the deep if I can't handle the basics, because I will quickly become overwhelmed and frustrated.
I suspected that I was going to be told what Ken told me in his first post, and it makes perfect sense. Anyhow, I think that ultimately all the theoretical stuff, all the design and planning, all the software we use, are only just the means to an end, and that end is the completed animation. I know I'm not capable of making an animation yet myself, but I think that just like a guitarist who has a more developed and wide-reaching technique has a broader variety of tools to express himself with, so will these tools (principles, drawing, software knowedge, acting skills etc) enable me to create better animation. Sure, by themselves they might be useless, but through having a diverse range of skills, my final product will be much better.
I did not say that drawing is pointless, I said it was pointless as a first step. Which was maybe a bit strongly put, however
Draw.
Develop absolute top-notch drawing skills.
The rest is pretty much just technical stuff and procedures. Good, appealing drawing skills cannot be replaced.
I think this is actually bad advice and also un true. As a first step developing top notch drawing skills is an extremely slow first step, which will take many years. In my experience many animators have a productive career without drawing skills, as I mentioned earlier (Im not making that stuff up about the programmer animator)
Also I have found that what ken refers to as technical stuff and prcedures is valued far far higher than good drawing skills, in all the studios I have worked in. They also seem to pay the technicaly minded animators much higher.
I should probably say that I trained as a 2d animator so its not like I cant see both sides of the coin. Ive done more than my fair share of life drawing, and yes I would agree the best animators that Ive met also had good drawing skills.
However "Good, appealing drawing skills cannot be replaced." this is soooo not true, I wish it was true, but the fact of the matter is an animator with a good understanding of so called "just technical stuff and procedures" will do better than the animator who relys on his drawing skills.
I think this is actually bad advice and also un true.
Why would it be bad advice?
The idea here is to offer advice for the best possible career path someone can take, not a half-assed job position that might last a few years until boredom sets in.
The idea of solid drawing skills is a foundation for a career.
If one is to be a project lead, for example, then they'd better be as well rounded as possible to oversee that project. How could they manage other artists if their own eye is untrained as to what is a good design or what is appealing?
They may have a "productive" career, but what about a progressive one?
Drawing trains the hand, eye AND mind to solve problems that a untrained person will navigate poorly, at best.
That programmer/animator probably couldn't devise a truly designy cartoony CGI character, from scratch. He'd likely need to be prompted by another artist and then work from there--and even then, would he know where to cheat the form?
A classically trained artist can go designy from the get-go.
When I'm talking about technical stuff, its more than just the software, its animation principles too, like stretch and squash, timing, lip synch, secondary actions etc. All of those things are pointless if the artist cannot make the work LOOK appealing--good drawing skills can cinch that.
There's good reasons why outfits like Pixar, Dreamworks, Blue Sky et al. all request that their 3D animators have a 2D background, including good drawing skills.
I have no agenda in pushing 2D over 3D, or even drawing per se. The idea is to point in the best possible direction. Saying something isn't neccessary is foolish, when the industry is so competitive for newcomers. EVERYTHING is an asset when you start out, and lacking anything can be a detriment.
This isn't even my own mantra. I'm essentially parroting the words of fellow teachers ( 2D AND 3D) and animation colleagues ( again, 2D and 3D) that I've worked with for years.
We can contradict each other all day long, but in the end......whose career is it, right?
—
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
i find 3d animation much harder and my observations of others working in both mediums is that 3d is harder. certainly for the novice. you have to be really focused in 3d to avoid letting the software create the animations. nothing worse than seeing standard computer tweened animation.
There's good reasons why outfits like Pixar, Dreamworks, Blue Sky et al. all request that their 3D animators have a 2D background, including good drawing skills.
Ken, this statement is false, and I am in a position to state this. You should be careful about posting incorrect information because you could unwittingly send people down the wrong path. I agree with the motivation behind your statements (I myself spent a year at art college before taking up my intended computer animation studies) but this does not reflect company policy at the major studies in any way.
Ken, this statement is false, and I am in a position to state this. You should be careful about posting incorrect information because you could unwittingly send people down the wrong path. I agree with the motivation behind your statements (I myself spent a year at art college before taking up my intended computer animation studies) but this does not reflect company policy at the major studies in any way.
Cheers,
K
Very well, I stand corrected on that score. Is it considered to be an asset however?
—
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Well, you all need to get your assets over to the Animation Blogspot and sign up for your free blog. First thing's first, eh? Whether you're a student, professional, or however you fit into the animation world, there's a nook for you. And we're excited to fill out this awesome new community of bloggers. For folks like Kevan, migrating the content from your Blogger account into your new blog on the Animation Blogspot is as easy as clicking a button!
[/Blatant Plug]
With regards to this conversation, here is some advice from Pixar's website (from their job FAQs):
We look at your work first, typically in the form of a videotaped reel. If the reel shows mastery or great potential in the area(s) of animation, lighting, modeling, or writing shaders, we then look at the resume to see your background and experience.
In choosing an animation related school, look for one that focuses on traditional skills, drawing, painting, sculpture, cinematography. Ask the school how they will help you build an effective portfolio of your work: not merely a collection of your assignments, but a well developed presentation of your unique point of view, and your technical skills. Also ask the school how well integrated their theatre and film departments are with their 2D and 3D art departments.
Learn enough about computer graphics to know how they work in general. Look for a school that has not substituted electronic arts for traditional (or vice versa). Ask them about how they balance the two. Avoid just learning packages of software. Today’s packages will be replaced several times during your school career, and many studios use proprietary software that you cannot learn in school anyway. Learn enough to know you can learn it, but concentrate on the more expressive traditional skills.
For whatever that's worth. At the end of the day, people don't necessarily care where or how you learned -- they care what your portfolio/reel shows. And, of course, that you get along as part of a team.
Very well, I stand corrected on that score. Is it considered to be an asset however?
Hi Ken,
Kev never said that drawing skill wasn't an asset. He was only pointing out that you used a false statement to support your argument. None of the three big studios request their 3D animators have a 2D background. I talked to animators who have worked for those studios before I wrote this reply just to make sure. I wish you would do the same before coming out with a statement like that.
Before we all go nuts ( or forego our nuts, or go for our nuts...) mayhaps we can all agree that newcomers to the industy should seek to get all the skills they can that will benefit them in the most advantageous ways.
It being THEIR careers, not our own, they get to make the choice of what skill-sets to focus on, what path to take and what medium to immerse themselves in.
And if they try to take our jobs, they get a kick in the.........
I think I have a jar of honey-roasted beer nuts somewhere here, lessssseeeee...........:rolleyes:
—
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Waiting 20 seconds for Maya to load so one can twist virtual action-figures?
or
Working dilligently 20 years to hone one's drafting skills to the point you can create anything of which you conceive?
Kev never said that drawing skill wasn't an asset. He was only pointing out that you used a false statement to support your argument. None of the three big studios request their 3D animators have a 2D background. I talked to animators who have worked for those studios before I wrote this reply just to make sure. I wish you would do the same before coming out with a statement like that.
-Paul
Paul-- I did say I stood corrected. I wish people would read what I write before they react to it.
I know animators that work for those studios. My info is just about 5 years out of date.
Besides, if its an asset, what's the problem with strongly reccomending it?
I any case, I've made my points, and been corrected on some.......I'll leave it to the rest of you all to expand, support, contradict, correct or otherwise confuse.
—
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
acting isnt imitation. you need to get to know your character, understand hteir thoughts, desires, their history
once you know your character you can start to understand how they might react in any given situation.
remember, everything your character does is a reaction to something else. even frame one of your film, you must consider what went before, what baggage are they bringing to the scene.
avoid referencing other actors performances for anything other than the pure mechanical functions of a move. the performance must come from you.
Hello, sorry I missed the beginning of this one....
DRAWING IS FIRST. Animators are artists- whether 2D or 3D. It was quoted to me once that, "... an animator who doesn't draw is like an actor without legs."
I have hundreds of former students out there working in the industry 2D and 3D. They all began with drawing.
Pixar says they don't care whether you do 2D or 3D in school or on your reel. What matters is your artistic portfolio and how well you can animate!
I know for a fact, that certain studios like Pixar have shunned some schools because the students lack drawing skills.
So the decision is ultimately up to you- but you only go as far in the industry as your drawing skills allow.
hey thanks ScatteredLogical, i was kinda confused do all the guys first do practice themselves like i film myself using my digi cam and then exagerrate some poses and then i go along is it fine way or in studio its diff ball game nd do ppl make 2d flash animation too (just rought) before moving to ur 3d application
My only experience with production pipelines is secondhand -- what the people who do have it tell me. It seems to be true that it really does take all kinds to make a world. I know quite a few who study the video reference to solve a problem of how to make something move, as a start for establishing timing, or at points even something to more or less adhere to with an eye for what to push to keep things cartoony. I also know people who plan with rough 2D (even if it's just keys). Sometimes the same person does both. It all boils down to what's efficient and gets the job done for -you-.
hey thanks ScatteredLogical, i was kinda confused do all the guys first do practice themselves like i film myself using my digi cam and then exagerrate some poses and then i go along is it fine way or in studio its diff ball game nd do ppl make 2d flash animation too (just rought) before moving to ur 3d application
cheers
Mandeep
Everybody has their own way of working. Some thumbnail, some don't. Some act their shots out, some don't.
The only thing people care about in a production environment is that your shots are up to snuff and that they're done on time. If you need to come to work wearing flippers and a chicken suit to achieve that, then that's what you do.
I don't know anyone that animates in 2D before they move to 3D, since it would chew up too much time that could be better spent improving the actual shot; however that doesn't mean you shouldn't if it helps you get better.
—
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy [i]-Tom Waits
[/i]
Hello, sorry I missed the beginning of this one....
DRAWING IS FIRST. Animators are artists- whether 2D or 3D. It was quoted to me once that, "... an animator who doesn't draw is like an actor without legs."
I have hundreds of former students out there working in the industry 2D and 3D. They all began with drawing.
Pixar says they don't care whether you do 2D or 3D in school or on your reel. What matters is your artistic portfolio and how well you can animate!
I know for a fact, that certain studios like Pixar have shunned some schools because the students lack drawing skills.
So the decision is ultimately up to you- but you only go as far in the industry as your drawing skills allow.
Hi Larry,
It is alright to encourage people to draw and I'm all for it. But to say that "you only go as far in the industry as your drawing skills allow" is simply not true and is unfair to the many young animators who came through a different route to where they are today. I am surrounded by animators and supervisors who did not spend a single day in 2d . Some of them animate better than they draw but it doesn't matter. The one thing they have in common is that they all can animate well and they are going very far in the industry. I have interviewed many animators over the years for 3d feature film positions and not once was it decided by their drawing skills. If you animate better than the others you'll get the job.
I'm not trying to dismiss drawing skills. Far from it-I draw a little bit myself! I'm just saying that top notch draftsmanship is not required if you want to become a 3d animator. That is not a matter of opinions, it's just my observation. I also happen to think that animation skill is bit different from drawing skills. You need both to be a 2d animator. But if you are talking about computer animation, there's no reason why a person who understand the basics of animation- timing, posing and acting etc- cannot become a successful animator even if he or she has less talent in drawing than some of the others.
Again, I love drawing myself but that's not the point, I just feel that we have a duty to not give incorrect information about the animation industry we are in today.
BUT, I stand by what I wrote. In fact, I would feel I would have given folks incorrect information if I hadn't been so "animate" about drawing.
It's my opinion- take it ot leave it - but it certainly has worked out for many, many many people.
You don't have to agree...
But you will NEVER find me altering my view of what's needed...and drawing is the first element.
When I am hiring, I look at the portfolio first- then go to the reel. I look for folks who can be an asset - as an artist and animator. The more arrows in the quiver the better....my opinion.
BUT, I stand by what I wrote. In fact, I would feel I would have given folks incorrect information if I hadn't been so "animate" about drawing.
It's my opinion- take it ot leave it - but it certainly has worked out for many, many many people.
You don't have to agree...
But you will NEVER find me altering my view of what's needed...and drawing is the first element.
When I am hiring, I look at the portfolio first- then go to the reel. I look for folks who can be an asset - as an artist and animator. The more arrows in the quiver the better....my opinion.
Hi Larry,
I respect your opinion and you have every right to stand by what you said.
I was only pointing out certain things that are happening in our industry these days. A lot of animators from the new generation never worked in 2d before but produced some of the best work we see on screen today.That's what I disagreed with you on- I do think that you can have a career in animation without being able to draw that well.
I myself is not a computer person at all. I was an illustrator before I got into the industry and I also spent quite a few years animating with pencils and paper so I have no reason to knock drawings and "promote" the alternative way. Like I said, I was merely pointing out what I see.
(If I had my way, I would pay every ex-2d animator three times as much so I get more money myself!)
:)
I have to agree with Larry, Ken and the rest who thinks that drawing comes first when it comes to plunging into a career in animation. In my case, I have seen several aspiring young kids who are so willing to go into animation, especially into Flash or 3D, that they tended to take the easy way in and disregard (well, not totally disregard, but half-heartedly taking) the drawing courses being offered to them. Suffice to say, they had a hard time moving on with their careers early on. They were astounding when it came to the use of the computer, but stumbled when the real task of animating came. Obviously, those who draw great don't have much of a problem (well, not all of them; some just dont have the knack for animation). My advice to them is the same as what my animation director keeps on telling me was to work on their drawing skills.
I have nothing against animators who work in 3D or Flash who do not have excellent drawing skills. I agree that sense in timing can get you a long way too in this kinds of medium, and I admire these artists that can get by in that manner.
In fact, I count myself as one of those who go in that same manner; my drawing sucks too! But in my opinion, it may be quite misleading if you tell an aspiring artist that he or she does not need drawing skills to succeed in animation. It is a must, and it is better for them to find it out earlier on rather that figure it out when they are in the thick of the fight and find out they brought the wrong kind of ammunition.
Huh, didn't know there were "GENERATIONS" of animators.
Sure, there will always be the "Young Turks" - folks coming up who have decided they invented the artform. Heck, I was probably was one once. But I did ( and do) have a healthy respect for those who came before me (- and after me for that matter).
Chuck Jones once said to a crowd of folks at the Don Bluth Studios in Dublin. There is no so such thing as good animators, just GOOD ANIMATION.
So I say, there is no NEW generation of animators, there are just ANIMATORS. Some are young, some are more mature (at least physically), some work in 2D, 3D, stop motion and effects.
I have a lot of former students out there- they...we... are all animators.
Thanks a bunch guys. It seems that I should have worded my original post more carefully. A career in animation isn't something that I decided upon through reasoning or drawing from a hat. Believe me, I can see how much patience and determination it will take me to reach a level where I am fit to be hired just from the sheer awesomeness of the work that the people I look up to are capable of producing, but I realized after having gone through a massive change, that to be able to create art is a deep-seated desire of mine, and I've been oblivious to these feelings up until (although I've toyed with various creative persuits, I was always too confused and doubtful to ever sit down and focus my energy on them fully). There is no alternative if I am to be happy.
I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to get a job, and then some, but I realise that all the determination in the world wont help me if I don't carefuly plan the rough order in which I learn things, and that it's never a good idea to get over-excited and jump into the deep if I can't handle the basics, because I will quickly become overwhelmed and frustrated.
I suspected that I was going to be told what Ken told me in his first post, and it makes perfect sense. Anyhow, I think that ultimately all the theoretical stuff, all the design and planning, all the software we use, are only just the means to an end, and that end is the completed animation. I know I'm not capable of making an animation yet myself, but I think that just like a guitarist who has a more developed and wide-reaching technique has a broader variety of tools to express himself with, so will these tools (principles, drawing, software knowedge, acting skills etc) enable me to create better animation. Sure, by themselves they might be useless, but through having a diverse range of skills, my final product will be much better.
Stop trying to impress Victor. Do you really want to win his left nut? What would you do with it? :confused:
It's a hindrance, dude. Game over, man. Game over.
I did not say that drawing is pointless, I said it was pointless as a first step. Which was maybe a bit strongly put, however
I think this is actually bad advice and also un true. As a first step developing top notch drawing skills is an extremely slow first step, which will take many years. In my experience many animators have a productive career without drawing skills, as I mentioned earlier (Im not making that stuff up about the programmer animator)
Also I have found that what ken refers to as technical stuff and prcedures is valued far far higher than good drawing skills, in all the studios I have worked in. They also seem to pay the technicaly minded animators much higher.
I should probably say that I trained as a 2d animator so its not like I cant see both sides of the coin. Ive done more than my fair share of life drawing, and yes I would agree the best animators that Ive met also had good drawing skills.
However "Good, appealing drawing skills cannot be replaced." this is soooo not true, I wish it was true, but the fact of the matter is an animator with a good understanding of so called "just technical stuff and procedures" will do better than the animator who relys on his drawing skills.
websiteEzromation blog/doodlesDeranged Scratchings
Why would it be bad advice?
The idea here is to offer advice for the best possible career path someone can take, not a half-assed job position that might last a few years until boredom sets in.
The idea of solid drawing skills is a foundation for a career.
If one is to be a project lead, for example, then they'd better be as well rounded as possible to oversee that project. How could they manage other artists if their own eye is untrained as to what is a good design or what is appealing?
They may have a "productive" career, but what about a progressive one?
Drawing trains the hand, eye AND mind to solve problems that a untrained person will navigate poorly, at best.
That programmer/animator probably couldn't devise a truly designy cartoony CGI character, from scratch. He'd likely need to be prompted by another artist and then work from there--and even then, would he know where to cheat the form?
A classically trained artist can go designy from the get-go.
When I'm talking about technical stuff, its more than just the software, its animation principles too, like stretch and squash, timing, lip synch, secondary actions etc. All of those things are pointless if the artist cannot make the work LOOK appealing--good drawing skills can cinch that.
There's good reasons why outfits like Pixar, Dreamworks, Blue Sky et al. all request that their 3D animators have a 2D background, including good drawing skills.
I have no agenda in pushing 2D over 3D, or even drawing per se. The idea is to point in the best possible direction. Saying something isn't neccessary is foolish, when the industry is so competitive for newcomers. EVERYTHING is an asset when you start out, and lacking anything can be a detriment.
This isn't even my own mantra. I'm essentially parroting the words of fellow teachers ( 2D AND 3D) and animation colleagues ( again, 2D and 3D) that I've worked with for years.
We can contradict each other all day long, but in the end......whose career is it, right?
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
i find 3d animation much harder and my observations of others working in both mediums is that 3d is harder. certainly for the novice. you have to be really focused in 3d to avoid letting the software create the animations. nothing worse than seeing standard computer tweened animation.
www.EvilAsSin.com
for more movies and downloads
the fastest polygon in the west!
YEEEEEHHHHAAAAA!
Shaquille O'Neal rebounds great and sure can dunk, but would you want him taking a free throw with the game on the line? ;)
my goal is to own everyones left nut, then i could open a shop selling trousers for people that dress to the right...
its a plan so simple yet genius
re cretins:
i was being deliberately crass since i was on a roll with my sweeping statements
now hand over the nuts people
www.EvilAsSin.com
for more movies and downloads
the fastest polygon in the west!
YEEEEEHHHHAAAAA!
Ken, this statement is false, and I am in a position to state this. You should be careful about posting incorrect information because you could unwittingly send people down the wrong path. I agree with the motivation behind your statements (I myself spent a year at art college before taking up my intended computer animation studies) but this does not reflect company policy at the major studies in any way.
Cheers,
K
[QUOTE=victorthroe]my goal is to own everyones left nut,
In the meantime, I'm considering starting a new career as a scriptwriter. My first attemp will be a sequel to "My Left Foot" .....
http://cargocollective.com/paulchunganimation
Very well, I stand corrected on that score. Is it considered to be an asset however?
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Do I even need to point out the irony here? :D
[Blatant Plug]
Well, you all need to get your assets over to the Animation Blogspot and sign up for your free blog. First thing's first, eh? Whether you're a student, professional, or however you fit into the animation world, there's a nook for you. And we're excited to fill out this awesome new community of bloggers. For folks like Kevan, migrating the content from your Blogger account into your new blog on the Animation Blogspot is as easy as clicking a button!
[/Blatant Plug]
With regards to this conversation, here is some advice from Pixar's website (from their job FAQs):
For whatever that's worth. At the end of the day, people don't necessarily care where or how you learned -- they care what your portfolio/reel shows. And, of course, that you get along as part of a team.
why stop at script writing
this might be the perfect opportunity to dust of the ol pencils and make the movie yourself
its a fairly simple shape to draw
a few squiggly hairs... voila
testicles are poorly represented body parts in animation....every one goes on about 'hands' and 'eyes'
lets see some nut gestures...
EXT Night. Winter.
Snow has settled across the land. Hiding and shrunken behind a zip awaits Arnold the nut. Patiently awaiting the call of the big screen.
ARNOLD
brrrr...im cold
www.EvilAsSin.com
for more movies and downloads
the fastest polygon in the west!
YEEEEEHHHHAAAAA!
Hi Ken,
Kev never said that drawing skill wasn't an asset. He was only pointing out that you used a false statement to support your argument. None of the three big studios request their 3D animators have a 2D background. I talked to animators who have worked for those studios before I wrote this reply just to make sure. I wish you would do the same before coming out with a statement like that.
-Paul
http://cargocollective.com/paulchunganimation
I talked to an Animator, who chatted with an Art Director, who knows a Barista-- that makes coffee for Steve Jobs!!!
Okay, I'm a liar.
Splatman:D
SPLAT digital
Before we all go nuts ( or forego our nuts, or go for our nuts...) mayhaps we can all agree that newcomers to the industy should seek to get all the skills they can that will benefit them in the most advantageous ways.
It being THEIR careers, not our own, they get to make the choice of what skill-sets to focus on, what path to take and what medium to immerse themselves in.
And if they try to take our jobs, they get a kick in the.........
I think I have a jar of honey-roasted beer nuts somewhere here, lessssseeeee...........:rolleyes:
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Hm. Which is "harder".
Waiting 20 seconds for Maya to load so one can twist virtual action-figures?
or
Working dilligently 20 years to hone one's drafting skills to the point you can create anything of which you conceive?
i dunno thats a pretty tough one
Paul-- I did say I stood corrected. I wish people would read what I write before they react to it.
I know animators that work for those studios. My info is just about 5 years out of date.
Besides, if its an asset, what's the problem with strongly reccomending it?
I any case, I've made my points, and been corrected on some.......I'll leave it to the rest of you all to expand, support, contradict, correct or otherwise confuse.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
can I just say.. I love the end of this thread. :)
Dood! Flash is waaaaay harder than either traditional or 3D!! :D
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
You do?
How about joining the research team of my upcoming film "My Left Nut". You'll get a lot of free figuring drawing classes. :)
-Paul
http://cargocollective.com/paulchunganimation
This debate is endless, and will go on forever!
Let's discuss something that we can all agree on.
Like...Macs are better than PCs.
Thank you.
Splatman:D
SPLAT digital
...nuff said.
Splatman:D
SPLAT digital
well thats a whole new thread
acting isnt imitation. you need to get to know your character, understand hteir thoughts, desires, their history
once you know your character you can start to understand how they might react in any given situation.
remember, everything your character does is a reaction to something else. even frame one of your film, you must consider what went before, what baggage are they bringing to the scene.
avoid referencing other actors performances for anything other than the pure mechanical functions of a move. the performance must come from you.
www.EvilAsSin.com
for more movies and downloads
the fastest polygon in the west!
YEEEEEHHHHAAAAA!
Hello, sorry I missed the beginning of this one....
DRAWING IS FIRST. Animators are artists- whether 2D or 3D. It was quoted to me once that, "... an animator who doesn't draw is like an actor without legs."
I have hundreds of former students out there working in the industry 2D and 3D. They all began with drawing.
Pixar says they don't care whether you do 2D or 3D in school or on your reel. What matters is your artistic portfolio and how well you can animate!
I know for a fact, that certain studios like Pixar have shunned some schools because the students lack drawing skills.
So the decision is ultimately up to you- but you only go as far in the industry as your drawing skills allow.
Larry
web site
http://tooninst[URL=http://tooninstitute.awn.com]itute.awn.com
[/URL]blog:
[U]http://www.awm.com/blogs/always-animated
[/U] email:
larry.lauria@gmail.com
hey thanks ScatteredLogical, i was kinda confused do all the guys first do practice themselves like i film myself using my digi cam and then exagerrate some poses and then i go along is it fine way or in studio its diff ball game nd do ppl make 2d flash animation too (just rought) before moving to ur 3d application
cheers
Mandeep
http://manufacturingme.blogspot.com/
My only experience with production pipelines is secondhand -- what the people who do have it tell me. It seems to be true that it really does take all kinds to make a world. I know quite a few who study the video reference to solve a problem of how to make something move, as a start for establishing timing, or at points even something to more or less adhere to with an eye for what to push to keep things cartoony. I also know people who plan with rough 2D (even if it's just keys). Sometimes the same person does both. It all boils down to what's efficient and gets the job done for -you-.
Everybody has their own way of working. Some thumbnail, some don't. Some act their shots out, some don't.
The only thing people care about in a production environment is that your shots are up to snuff and that they're done on time. If you need to come to work wearing flippers and a chicken suit to achieve that, then that's what you do.
I don't know anyone that animates in 2D before they move to 3D, since it would chew up too much time that could be better spent improving the actual shot; however that doesn't mean you shouldn't if it helps you get better.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy [i]-Tom Waits
[/i]
Hi Larry,
It is alright to encourage people to draw and I'm all for it. But to say that "you only go as far in the industry as your drawing skills allow" is simply not true and is unfair to the many young animators who came through a different route to where they are today. I am surrounded by animators and supervisors who did not spend a single day in 2d . Some of them animate better than they draw but it doesn't matter. The one thing they have in common is that they all can animate well and they are going very far in the industry. I have interviewed many animators over the years for 3d feature film positions and not once was it decided by their drawing skills. If you animate better than the others you'll get the job.
I'm not trying to dismiss drawing skills. Far from it-I draw a little bit myself! I'm just saying that top notch draftsmanship is not required if you want to become a 3d animator. That is not a matter of opinions, it's just my observation. I also happen to think that animation skill is bit different from drawing skills. You need both to be a 2d animator. But if you are talking about computer animation, there's no reason why a person who understand the basics of animation- timing, posing and acting etc- cannot become a successful animator even if he or she has less talent in drawing than some of the others.
Again, I love drawing myself but that's not the point, I just feel that we have a duty to not give incorrect information about the animation industry we are in today.
Have a nice day!
-Paul
http://cargocollective.com/paulchunganimation
Hello Paul,
I understand your passion for your alternative.
BUT, I stand by what I wrote. In fact, I would feel I would have given folks incorrect information if I hadn't been so "animate" about drawing.
It's my opinion- take it ot leave it - but it certainly has worked out for many, many many people.
You don't have to agree...
But you will NEVER find me altering my view of what's needed...and drawing is the first element.
When I am hiring, I look at the portfolio first- then go to the reel. I look for folks who can be an asset - as an artist and animator. The more arrows in the quiver the better....my opinion.
Larry
web site
http://tooninst[URL=http://tooninstitute.awn.com]itute.awn.com
[/URL]blog:
[U]http://www.awm.com/blogs/always-animated
[/U] email:
larry.lauria@gmail.com
What magazine is VTS?
Hi Larry,
I respect your opinion and you have every right to stand by what you said.
I was only pointing out certain things that are happening in our industry these days. A lot of animators from the new generation never worked in 2d before but produced some of the best work we see on screen today.That's what I disagreed with you on- I do think that you can have a career in animation without being able to draw that well.
I myself is not a computer person at all. I was an illustrator before I got into the industry and I also spent quite a few years animating with pencils and paper so I have no reason to knock drawings and "promote" the alternative way. Like I said, I was merely pointing out what I see.
(If I had my way, I would pay every ex-2d animator three times as much so I get more money myself!)
:)
-Paul
http://cargocollective.com/paulchunganimation
filming yourself is great for some of the more subtle movements
especially for the torso area in animations like bending down or turning around...the hips and rig cage do surprising things when observed closely
thumbnails are also good especially in cg because it is so easy to let the software dictate the poses
www.EvilAsSin.com
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I have to agree with Larry, Ken and the rest who thinks that drawing comes first when it comes to plunging into a career in animation. In my case, I have seen several aspiring young kids who are so willing to go into animation, especially into Flash or 3D, that they tended to take the easy way in and disregard (well, not totally disregard, but half-heartedly taking) the drawing courses being offered to them. Suffice to say, they had a hard time moving on with their careers early on. They were astounding when it came to the use of the computer, but stumbled when the real task of animating came. Obviously, those who draw great don't have much of a problem (well, not all of them; some just dont have the knack for animation). My advice to them is the same as what my animation director keeps on telling me was to work on their drawing skills.
I have nothing against animators who work in 3D or Flash who do not have excellent drawing skills. I agree that sense in timing can get you a long way too in this kinds of medium, and I admire these artists that can get by in that manner.
In fact, I count myself as one of those who go in that same manner; my drawing sucks too! But in my opinion, it may be quite misleading if you tell an aspiring artist that he or she does not need drawing skills to succeed in animation. It is a must, and it is better for them to find it out earlier on rather that figure it out when they are in the thick of the fight and find out they brought the wrong kind of ammunition.
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Huh, didn't know there were "GENERATIONS" of animators.
Sure, there will always be the "Young Turks" - folks coming up who have decided they invented the artform. Heck, I was probably was one once. But I did ( and do) have a healthy respect for those who came before me (- and after me for that matter).
Chuck Jones once said to a crowd of folks at the Don Bluth Studios in Dublin. There is no so such thing as good animators, just GOOD ANIMATION.
So I say, there is no NEW generation of animators, there are just ANIMATORS. Some are young, some are more mature (at least physically), some work in 2D, 3D, stop motion and effects.
I have a lot of former students out there- they...we... are all animators.
Larry
web site
http://tooninst[URL=http://tooninstitute.awn.com]itute.awn.com
[/URL]blog:
[U]http://www.awm.com/blogs/always-animated
[/U] email:
larry.lauria@gmail.com
Huh? NO! I'm suggesting that there are certain things you learn from 2D.
And Flash is awesome.
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