muurtikaar is an ingrate and clueless. muurtikaar will never get any questions answered on this forum ever again.
Question: Definitions for Shot Scene Sequence
By muurtikaar | Tuesday, February 24, 2009 at 7:15pm
#1
Question: Definitions for Shot Scene Sequence
I am not in the industry but I thought I will try out what I have learn from this form and the books I have read. I am not sure but I think there is a difference between production scenes and end product scenes. You make three minutes of a chase scene but in edit you use only thirty (30) seconds. You do three different shots of two people talking. They talk for five minutes in each shot but in edit you cut between all three different shots.
So I think that a shot is when the camera starts and there can be multiple shots of a scene. A scene is anything of any length but it is only one location so multiple location means multiple scenes.
As for sequence, I think that is just a list, like 1 to 100 or A to Z. You take a set of scenes to be shot or edited in a fixed order. If this is wrong I hope someone makes the correction.
A FILM is broken down into SEQUENCES (think of them as chapters in a book- THE LOVE SEQUENCE, THE CHASE SEQUENCE, THE FIGHT SEQUENCE) .
SEQUENCES are broken down into SCENES (which indicate every time the camera changes angles). Some folks use the term SHOTS instead of SCENES. The genesis of SHOTS is from live-action film making.
So it goes FILM-SEQUENCES-SCENES...
Hope that helps...
Larry
web site
http://tooninst[URL=http://tooninstitute.awn.com]itute.awn.com
[/URL]blog:
[U]http://www.awm.com/blogs/always-animated
[/U] email:
larry.lauria@gmail.com
It seems like every studio uses the same term differently. Most of the studios I've worked at us Scene and shot. A scene is by location. So if you start inside the kitchen, that's scene one. Then the character walks to the back yard. That is scene two.
A shot is every time the camera cuts. So an establishing shot is shot one. Cut to a two shot, that's shot two. Cut to a close up, that's shot three, and so on.
Hopefully confuses you even more ;)
Aloha,
the Ape
...we must all face a choice, between what is right... and what is easy."
Every animation project I've done has used "Scene" and "shot" to mean the same thing, and a sequence is a series of related scenes.
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Here's the definition as I taught it for about 10 years--and as I have used it for many more:
A SHOT is essentially a individual "frame" or whatever the camera is looking at at that moment.
Since the camera is not static, it can move to view the setting or action from another POV, and this when it comes to rest again THAT is another SHOT.
My distinction is that there's no cutting between SHOTS.
So, those potentially multiple shots can make up a scene--which is a "vignette" of action taking place in a given location. The SCENE looks at the vignette until it can no longer tell the story effectively from that POV, and then it cuts or transitions ( via dissolve etc), to a new SCENE.
Thus, a series of SCENES strung together that combine their individual moments to tell a larger part of the story form a SEQUENCE. A SEQUENCE is a chunk of the overall story, be it a dance sequence, chase sequence, fight sequence etc. Think of it as an encapsulated event within the story.
For all intents and purposes, every time the story moves to a NEW location in the script, it can be considered a new SEQUENCE.
Now, a series of SEQUENCES combine to form an ACT. An ACT is a portion of the story, from TV its usually about 7 minutes ( the time between commercial break), in cinema it can be anywhere from about 20-40 minutes or more--depending on how the film is structured, and how many acts is chooses to have. An act is akin to a chapter in a book
If we have a series of SCENES that take place inside a house, that can be one SEQUENCE, then moving the camera outside to another series of SCENES at a barn in the same general location ( on the plot of land that both of the house and barn are on) would be another SEQUENCE.
Moving the story to a city some distance away, would likely herald the next ACT--because its a totally different set-piece, with its own tempo and tonal story elements. You can cut back briefly to the farm if you need to and still be within that act--as long as the "tempo" is maintained.
Think of the original Superman movie: We had the opening act on Krypton--then the next act on the Kent farm. Clark travels to the Arctic to build his Fortress of Solitude and then the setting abruptly changes to noisy Metropolis. For all intents and purposes, the two distinct environments of the prairie farmland, and the icy Arctic are the same ACT.
This is because of the overall tone of the story being Clark's journey of self-discovery of his heritage as Kal-El. Its encompassed by his arrival on Earth, is discovery and being raised by the Kents, and the values they instilled in him, and the lessons of his Kryptonian history from Jor-El. This encapsulates that early middle act of the film.
Make sense?
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
I may have missed this but if you use multiple camera then the material from each camera would be referred to as something like camera one or camera three.
Hello Again,
I was going through an old Disney layout workbook and they break their films into Sequences and Scenes- just as I mentioned in an earlier post.
Same goes for Sheridan College, Ballyfermot Senior College and others...
Bottom line: every studio has their own system.
Different terms are used or misused and they become part of the language...like "animatic".
Animatic was first used as a advertising term - then they shot the ad storyboards and added a bit of animation here and there. I can conform this because my studio used to do them for some of our clients.
Now, folks use animatic to mean leica reel or progression reel for animated TV shows, shorts and features.
It's a changing world out there...
Thanks.
Larry
web site
http://tooninst[URL=http://tooninstitute.awn.com]itute.awn.com
[/URL]blog:
[U]http://www.awm.com/blogs/always-animated
[/U] email:
larry.lauria@gmail.com
Starting from the bottom...
Frame = 1 frame of animation (drawn or rendered)
Scene/Shot = a series of frames (typically from 1 camera/POV)
Sequence = a series of shots/scenes
Act = a series of sequences
I may have missed this but if you use multiple camera then the material from each camera would be referred to as something like camera one or camera three.
You don't always go by camera numbers. When setting up your project you might set up your sequences and shots like this:
100_010
100_020
100_030
100_040
200_010
200_020
200_030
...etc.
Leave yourself room to add sequences and shots ... for instance you can insert sequences like
100
200
[B]210
250[/B]
300
400
And shots like this:
110_010
[B]110_011
110_012[/B]
110_020
110_030
Don't be surprised when you start editing that your "cut list" changes -- this is how your final shots and sequences are assembled - they don't always stay in nice neat sequential order. So you you'll probably end up with a cut list (the order of shots in the final cut) and a shot list (a sequential list of shots for easy tracking).
As a time/money saver, many shots are "same as" where they use the same shot/BG as a previous shot - these still get their own shot name/number but are called out in some way that they're repeats.
Budgeting wise, you can build in a certain number of "same as" shots.
Obviously these are just guidelines. You can set things up anyway they make sense to you. As long as they make sense to everyone else in the pipeline.
Very helpful, I am working with a video editor right now and I am having a lot of headaches. I really need to get a book but that can wait for a while.
Something very helpful with editing and tracking shots is to get a quicktime from the latest cut and, working with photoshop, copy the shots in a sequence and make a contact sheet out of it. You can copy/paste in one file and export the layers as jpgs. then make a contact sheet. Under each shot, you write the shot name. Great way to track progress.
And, say you need to insert a reaction shot or want to add some B roll, just put in a place holder describing the scene and it's new name. An easy way to keep track of shot order.
Another helpful hint, don't change shot names. If you've altered the shot in some way, call it shotA, shotB, shotC.
Hopefully your using a data base of some sort and one person should be the gatekeeper. No different versions floating around.
Keep EVERYTHING. Save EVERYTHING.
b'ini - the PA
I use this same principle. But now where it gets more confusing is cutscenes, which in the name itself states the scene cuts away, but doesn't necessarily end. What I do is I categorize scenes and cutscenes(or flashbacks/flashforwards/dream sequences/ect.) in both of their own categories, because of the fact that they technically do not derail or end a scene. If anything, a cutscene is a "sub-scene", if you will.
Because of this categorizing, I list the shots in a cutscene in their own category. It seems like a bit of extra work, but it helps greatly when you want to add little bits and pieces of cutscenes all around a scene.
An example I have is the character is talking, and it cuts away to different moments of the same scene:
(Scene-Shot)
[S1=Home] [CS1=Park]
[S1-S1]Char: So I went to the park the other day,
[CS1-S1] *gets thrown out of bus into park*
[S1-S2]Char: I made some nice friends,
[CS1-S2] *being chased by vicious dog*
[S1-S3]Char: Had some good food,
[CS1-S3]*With a grimacing look, peels gum off the bottom of the bench and chews it*
[S1-S4]Char: Oh, and I met a really hot lady too.
[CS1-S4]*Hawaiian Fire Dancer juggles burning torches around his head*
[S1-S5]Char: All in all, it was a good day.
[S2-S1] ect ect, next scene already implies the last one ended, same with the cutscene, and so on and so forth
Now I hope THAT confuses you all just a little more. :)
, if you started working for Pixar or Dreamworks, do you think that they would let you keep using your system?
I think you way is fine and with a Key Table, anyone could follow it. It is just that I feel sorry for you guys in the business who have to avoid problems like how sequence is being defined and used at work.
Its not hard. Once you understand the basic idea, and then find out how each studio differentiates their terminology, its easy to adapt.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
muurtikaar is an ingrate and clueless. muurtikaar will never get any questions answered on this forum ever again.
Oh brother, c'mon............is this THAT hard?
The basic idea is that every time you cut, or transition, in film you are transitioning to something new--be it a new shot or a new scene, depending on how those terms are used by the studio.
Throughout my career in animation, the common usage I have seen is that every time you cut, you cut to a new scene.
A shot is a component of the scene, usually a given POV within the scene, allowing for a change of camera position during the scene ( as in a camera pan or zoom).
That's the usage I've worked with for 20+ years.
Now, some other studios use the terms differently. They substitute the term "shot" for "scene"--using the live-action approach. That is that a "scene" in live-action is located in a given setting, for the duration of the business in that setting.
In live-action, the camera can "cut" between shots (they use the term differently, remember) within the same scene, as long as they remain in that setting. Think of the setting as a movie set, if that helps.
For their usage, once you leave that setting, you cut, or transition to a new scene.
The reason for the different usage of the term in animation comes from the fact that to break up the work amongst animators, their individual "scene" folders contain only the material that needs to be animated between the cutting of that particular bit of business. They call that portion of the work a "scene" for the sake of ease and expediency.
So, to sum up:
In live-action: In a given setting (a living room, for example) you cut between shots within that scene (the location). Once you change location, you change scenes.
In animation: Usually....whenever you cut, you cut to a new scene. A shot is merely a given POV moment within a scene. Some studios choose to use the terminology as above in live-action.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Well for myself and muurtikaar it is a little bit but that is do to not being there on the working front. I mess around on my own but if I ever get a blog going, you guy would be truly horrified at what I have been doing.
muurtikaar is an ingrate and clueless. muurtikaar will never get any questions answered on this forum ever again.
Hey, if you are not a pro, don't worry about it. If you can get into the biz, it'll be explained for you.
For the meantime, use the terms however you like.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
muurtikaar is an ingrate and clueless. muurtikaar will never get any questions answered on this forum ever again.
Wow.
Um... I don't think its that hard... Animation just uses different terms than Film does.
I think that 3D animators are adopting Film's terms because, well, they may feel that they're more closely related to that genre than traditional animation.
Pardon me while I roll my eyes...
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Look mate, if you want to insult me.......go find your own answers.
You've gotten the answers you are going to get, if you are too stupid to figure it out from what has been posted, then its not my problem.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Wow - now there's a new synonym for ingrate. See also: clueless and self-destruction.
Good luck getting any other questions answered here - ever.
muurtikaar is an ingrate and clueless. muurtikaar will never get any questions answered on this forum ever again.
lol.
Follow @chaostoon on Twitter!
Thin-skinned too, by the looks of things...
muurtikaar is an ingrate and clueless. muurtikaar will never get any questions answered on this forum ever again.
Good luck integrating yourself in a production team with that attitude, buster. Supervisors and directors will just love you.
muurtikaar is an ingrate and clueless. muurtikaar will never get any questions answered on this forum ever again.
muurtikaar is an ingrate and clueless. muurtikaar will never get any questions answered on this forum ever again.
Does this confusion of a single word having more than one definition cause problems in the production pipe line? I do not know but I suspect that it has been a source of over runs in budget for production cast.
I would think that a standard need to be set so that different groups working on the same project are all on the line of thought. A sequence need to mean the same thing to everyone connected to the project. Relearning the new meaning of a few simple terms, with every new job, can not be a good thing.
On a personal level, I do not care about the definition as long as that definition does not change.
there are Acts and Scenes in scripts.
Live action Cinematography followed this tradition. So a Scene is a collection or sequence of shots around a major plot point or location. A Shot is a single continuous camera angle, either moving or locked off, with a slate to indicate the start of recording. Shots are separated by a cut or another transition, in a Scene's edit.
Disney however traditionally used Scene #s for each piece of background art to be framed in camera. It's the equivalent of a live action shot. Sequence means a collection of these Scenes around a plot point, location, and set of backgrounds, in the film's edit.
Animation and VFX studios either follow the Disney tradition or the Live Action tradition, depending on their culture. Hence the range of opinions, so we adapt as needed. Team members learn the rules of the studio, pipeline, or project they work with.
It should be noted that Shotgun, a popular production management pipeline for animation, uses "Sequence" and "Shot", and bypasses the ambiguity of "Scene" altogether.