I think it's time some guidelines for correct behavior were outlined and made sticky. The Cafe is becoming nothing more than a flame war theatre.
Between the spam and the flame wars it's not very conducive to conversation around here anymore.
I realize Ape and Larry do their best, but when new and young members are attacked unreasonably, it's time something was done.
Why reply to a thread if the only reason you do it is to run down another member. Personal attacks are becoming rampant.
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Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
(I have Phacker on ignore, but I just had to view this post, as the hypocrisy is too stunning.)
Are you suggesting that the only reason you've attacked people on the forum, simply for having opinions that you disagreed with, Phacker, is because you haven't had guidelines?
Phacker, you're a politician at heart.
Ape has said that he will no longer delete flame posts, and he certainly hasn't deleted any of Phacker's, so a "guidelines" thread would be kind of pointless.
I am just suggesting that we could all behave with a little more civility and enjoy the enthusiam that the new folks that have recently discovered animation are instilled with. Instead of trying to make a name for ourselves by cutting others down.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
Aren't you the one who so conveniently have instigated and with no prudent or astute choices have even flared members here on this forum?
It is not the matter of public display of controversy that is driving this forum (in your opinion) into the gutter, but the bigots we have here who refuse to acknowledge the right to a persons' point of view.
Think about it.
A sticky that says: No personal Insults (please read), is available for one and all to see, don't you think, that it in itself will beg the question:
"Wow this forum is such a war zone that the people here can't even adopt public decency."
He who seeks the truth, must first empty his heart of a false pursuit.
Diemeras Dark Angel
With respect to the intent of the topic and the starting poster, I still have to address something regarding Diemeras Dark Angel. Here's a poster who, imo, shouldn't even be posting in this thread, much less this forum.
Its not a question of flaming someone for snide or petty reasons, here we have a person that deliberately mislead and misrepresented themselves and was caught in several blatant lies about themself.
One only has to recall the discovered revelations about Diemeras Dark Angel to realize that this person's commentary should ALWAYS be considered suspect here.
If these forums are to function as a go-between with professionals and students and newcomers, then personal integrity is an important value.
Anyone can represent themselves as anything and do great harm in the process by misleading the ignorant with false info about themselves and the industry. That devalues the entire purpose of these forums if that kind of conduct allowed to prosper.
I think there a fine line between being candid and honest with someone, and patronzing them uneccessarily. Being blunt with someone, sometimes is doing them a service, rather than a disservice.
To that end I personally do not feel that ANY flaming has been going on here of late. People have been blunt and honest with others, and have directed their POV's in a straightforward manner.
I have no problem with gushing enthusiasm, but I'll step in and voice a "correction", if I think someone is touting a line of fluff as an absolute.
I'd only do this if my experience and professional judgement/informed opinion warrants that.
I'll also continue to question the various "business endeavours" that come and go here in the business forum. I'll be fair, where fairness is called for, but I'll also play hardball with people that continue to be vague about things that need be crystal clear.
Otherwise, no pooping of the party by moi.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
All of you can bash me as much as you like. I can take it. But when you gang up on a young new member because you don't approve of his grammar...without reading his thread, that's another story. Some of the folks here have English as a secondary language. And that should also be accounted for.
I enjoy reading posts by young enthusiatic newcomers. I don't try to improve my reputation by cutting them down. I would rather try to understand and hold a dialogue with them. So they bring up issues that have already been covered? Gamecon wasn't bringing up the tired old what is the best school stuff, that's already stickied. He was trying to open up a dialogue on creativity and it's motives. You guys effectively shot any open exchange on that topic down before it ever got off the ground.
If you find a post hard to read, don't reply to it, or perhaps politely ask for clarification. You succeeded with scarying off Ape. So I see moderation as becoming even scarser these days.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
Well, insults and ridicule are one thing, but communication is another.
I post in other forums, on other subjects and there's young people posting who have the background and education to use language properly--but they do not.
My argument here ( weak though it may be) is that English language is the default language of communication here. Anyone not versed in the language is excluded, any having difficulty is.........well they can be hamstrung. That's just a fact of life on the internet, if you can't communicate, then re-arrange what you do so you can or avoid those venues.
Yea, it might take a bit longer, but who benefits?
Everyone.
I felt that Gamecon90 was quite well versed in English--it was his thoughts that I found to be poorly strung out.
What I found debatable were his "absolutes"--his conclusions about a form and industry that he really doesn't know much about. He comes across as just a consumer, and his ideas seem to be borne from youthful inexperience.
Hey, that's okay--there's no rule saying you must be a pro to post and participate here.
Younger people always tend to think in absolute terms, they are trying to define their place in the world and they seek its borders. I understand that.
I also understand that they cannot realize those borders unless they are introduced to them.
To that end, I think challenging an idea is part and parcel of the journey, albeit in a polite and considered way.
That is where learning comes from.
Okay, so structuring a sentence is part of all this, at least several members made the ATTEMPT to get Gamecon90 to alter his writing style so what he wrote could be read. That says to me the INTEREST in his POV is there.
If that's the case, then the respect for Gamecon90 is also there and the "flaming" really isn't.
Blind patronage serves no-one--I think it actually does harm.
There's LOTS of ego-fluffing in forums like these, and critiques don't happen enough. Problem is, there's a lot of people that don;t know how to give, or take, critiques of any kind.
Writing clearly and thoughtfully doesn't just happen. Just like animating something packed with emotion and pathos, you have to work at it to put your ideas across. Just throwing down lines isn't going to work, right?
Someone will come along and point out that what it is you are doing isn't working.
Maybe that's what this was really all about.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Oh fer chrissakes - are we still picking over the bones of that conversation?
Phacker, at this point I'm convinced you're either intentionally ignoring what everyone has labored endlessly to clarify for your benefit, or you're just never going to "get it." Either way, it's time to get over it. Gamecon doesn't need you as his champion, and from his subsequent posts it's clear that he's understood the help several of us have attempted to provide, and is taking it to heart. At least he's willing to assimilate other opinions and points of view. You'd do well to follow his lead, rather than trying to be his standard-bearer.
You'll undoubtedly be offended by this post, but by now I'm convinced you'd find a way to be offended by someone saying "good morning" to you, so there's no point in being anything other than blunt.
Thank you for your input to my thread DSB, it simply illustrates my point. The expressed pseudo civility in this thread shows that some will continue to try and garner respect by running others down.
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
Ken Davis, I refuse to hold you in contempt of uncivil and biased statements toward me and countless others, you're an educator and if I had known that sooner, I would have showed a greter deal of respect toward you. And If I have been rash toward you in any way, form or manner then I do apologise.
But please, I ask that you discontinue your blatant slander toward members here who do not fit your standards, you are experienced in life and all it's verses of morality, and I know for a fact that you do not behave this way in real life, it is easy to misrepresent and misunderstand the tone of someone's words, especially when you have confiction of thought--trying to paint an image of the person who you obviously cannot see. It is a matter of mental stigma, attatched to a person's psyche, where by an image, replication or form of the unknown insights fear into our minds. (Strange and somewhat hard to understand, but perhaps somethings are better left up to those, who can read between the lines).
I no longer wish o fight you or anyone for that matter, you are entirely wrong about me, and I cannot fathom the reason my life sparks so much intrigue, but I understand that when you put it out there for everyone to see, things are definately going to be said. Phacker, I still cannot figure out your motives, but I do hope you get/find what you're looking for. So stop this madness, we're all friends here and we're all alike, we all are in some way connected to animation and I we come here because it's comforting to know, that out there is someone just like me.
He who seeks the truth, must first empty his heart of a false pursuit.
Diemeras Dark Angel
And others will profess to see offense where none exists, and persist in asserting it's there even when repeated demonstrations to the contrary prove otherwise - not to mention acting more "offended" that those who are purported to be the target of the offense.
Or are you saying that expressing a dissenting opinion or offering a contrary observation is no longer welcome on a discussion board?
Contrary observations and dissenting opinions are fine if you bother to read a post before applying criticism, but if you base your critique on a previously based statement without reading the original post, you are buying into a political viewpoint without individual input. By the way anyone seen Ape around lately?
Pat Hacker, Visit Scooter's World.
And who, specifically, are you claiming has done this? It'd be nice if you provided quotes that prove your assertions. After all, anyone can claim anything at all - backing it up is the trick.
stop..my ribs...oh you animators slay me with your over the top humour