When educators and employers are interviewed for books and magazines about the success of students and their work after they've graduated, their tone is very excited and they seem eager and hopeful to work with them.
Statistically, though, they also offer up that only a small handful of the most talented individuals ever get jobs, especially directly after school has let out, and that such a thing as a steady job in animation is almost unheard of. I knew about contract work and that last part, but why specifically is it so hard to break in?
I don't know if it was on here or somewhere else online, but someone once made the comment that this industry would rather leave a position open than have it filled with mediocre talent. And in reading these forums and the promo material for Animation Mentor (which prides itself on running by the power and fuel of professional animators who have jobs) everyone says it's a tight-knit industry (much like hanggliding hobbyists, who have, in one example I was given by a relative who flies, "two degrees of separation").
Is there any hope for expansion? And why not keep people on if they did good work? Having gone to personal webpages for working animators, a few have stayed on for several films. That's more than enough time to look for other work, so that'd be a happy day for me...But for those others on the run, with all the hard work and energy and money it takes to get blinked at in the right way...You'd almost -have- to have wanted to do this job since you were a fetus...
I guess my question is, with all this willingness to be surrounded by strong talent, how extreme/selective are employers? They use phrases like being "blown away" by what they receive....I consider myself very talented in all the other fine arts, but it makes me curious about what their definition of blown away is....I guess you find out when you apply for the position, no? I just am wondering if it's the virtuosos or the savants that get animation work....(Like I'm at a very high end of memory retention, as an example, but for a normal person -- I consider people that can memorize phone books as a different category....the extreme opposite of having a mental problem)...
Two or three years time before I'm out there trying to do it...and just wanted to guage the affairs........I know a lot of people say each company is different, but there have to be some general rules that apply all over the place...
I just graduated in June 7th..
i was FORTUNATE to get an offer recently... the employer whom i met at my portfolio show was interested at the spot.
now i say i'm fortunate.. cause a class of 44 animation students graduated.. myself along with maybe 10 to 20 at the most have come close to getting a job and the rest are sitting duck... I still havn't finalized my job yet.. but chances are good...
EVERYBODY wants experience.. where the hell are we going to get that when we don't even get a chance?
when we start college... there is this hope we'll get a job as an animator.. we'll be making cartoons .. wow.. the real world is different. unfortunatly.. for students like me who are not rich and go to skool on loans... it's really heart breaking..
what can be done??? lol who knows.. maybe nothing.. but.. this is just a student's view
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Jobs in all disciplines are hard to come by these days. Students graduating in more traditional fields who previously had no trouble finding work are confronting the same problems that you are encountering. The economy is effecting people in many ways. People who expected to retire have lost so much of their retirement savings that they are choosing to continue working.
Typically the companies that say they only hire the top 10% are the big movie companies. They expect most people to have some experience at a smaller company prior to being hired at their companies. Most large companies have internal graphics departments and today animation is often part of what they do. Every city in the country has television stations. Each station has some graphics people on staff. Design firms are another option.
My undergrad degree is in theatre. No one expected everyone in our department to find work in that industry. Some people did go into that field. I was one of them. I worked in the NY theatre for almost 10 years. It's very much like what you describe in the animation industry. Few permanant jobs exist and the best folks in that business often don't want the permanent jobs. Designers, like actors, are always looking for work. I made enough to take vacations every year and saved enough to go to graduate school. The free lance life style was fun for me when I was young. I worked on many great projects, traveled through 4 continents and gained tons of experience. But for me 10 years was enough. Other friends of mine are still doing it. It depends on your nature as to what you will prefer.
One of the biggest issues is finding a way to get health insurance. Unions and some professional organizations provide group rates. Individual insurance tends to be quite expensive. Some friends who had a small animation company ended up spending about $1000 per month on health insurance.
If passion drives you in a certain direction despite the difficulties, go for it. Otherwise, you should probably choose a different alternative.
- Marla
So I should be passionate until I run out of the money to feed myself and then wither and way and die? A bit melodramatic lol.....But also romantic....
I don't worry about myself, I'm saying it's a problem that shouldn't exist and I wish we had ways to fight. There's no way anything's going to change for the country when the cost is too prohibitive to be able to learn much less get a job. In ten years we could have a national of unskilled fools the way it seems headed. And in reality, maybe we don't need animation to survive, but we need it as a culture, so while I'm more than ready to take up menial labor if it's necessary for the U.S. to survive I'd be readier to do the thing that makes me happy and (speaking of Hollywood and television) rakes in billions of dollars for the nation as a whole.
I know the economy's jumpy for everyone, but nobody around where I live is having problems working at a steel mill, or a graphic design firm, or the printing presses, and my model sister is backed up with jobs for months now...so while these are different varieties of work, when you're not surrounded by the problems I guess that's where my distorted perspective comes in...
If the schools won't be vocal, why not conjecture? I think there's a trillion people who are without direction (for whatever reason) and just to to school to party and fail out within the first year or two. The school however still has to accomodate for their existence...so why not do advanced screening? If we screen for top graduates and screen for employment, --don't let kids (or adults) go to school unless it's something they wanna do and their commitment can be proven-- ...What better way to save money than to only pay for the existences of people who wanna be there as opposed to "it's what you do after high school"....granted most industries now require a degree, but this is one of many ideas that should be passed around. Otherwise the schools have usurped the educational element of society, and because business that just happen to teach, as opposed to teaching institutions that are running a business (discount state schools of course)...
If you're not willing to try and be open, or try and make a change, or cooperate...I'm not sure why there are so many allowed expecations on the students....Not everyone's a self-starter like me and the people on these boards...
Or how about bringing back merit scholarships? At 90% of the schools I've looked at in these past couple of years....Maybe one or two.....Or you get special housing if your SATs were nice, things like that. Other than that it was who you knew or what nationality you were, what government lobby was on your side, etc... Even art merit scholarship competitions.....that should be a MAJORITY thing.... The industry and schools should be working together to help support -itself-....
* Again, this is how it -seems-...if this is way off-base, you'll know better and correct me, because it'll only help...
How many hopeful actors and actresses have waited tables for years waiting for that big break? That's passion. Yes, some make it and some don't. There are no guarantees. How badly do you want to be an animator? If you don't want it that badly, you choose another route and you so clearly state in the negative.
Lots of folks start businesses that don't make it and they lose everything. Or the business burns down and they have to start over. Again, no guarantees. Welcome to adulthood.
Don't pay attention to the phrase "go to college to get a good job". That's not what college is about. It's about being educated. It's about learning. Even engineers are having a tough time finding work these days. And lots of them have been laid off after years with a company. Now they are looking for work just like recent grads. Again there are no guarantees.
It's one thing to be young and have debts and no job. It's quite another to have others you need to support and be in that same situation. You live in a fantasy land if you think there is some magic you can do to guarantee you a good paying job for life. It just doesn't happen.
- Marla
Time isn't the issue, motivation isn't the issue, cost is the issue....Acting classes, acting school, etc. can help. But I'd be interested how many "break-out" famous celebrity actors went to school, and if so how much it cost them to.
Doubt is natural, fear is unnatural. Never confuse the two. And never assume a young age is always equivalent to a lack of life experience or a lack of cognitive thinking.
I know from personal experience what you mean as my parents and her parents got together to buy a race track, and it folded after three seasons because of a lack of attendance mixed with unfavorable weather. They each invested over fifty thousand dollars just to acquire it, and now that it's gone (the track remains, but we don't...there, that is) they each are out almost one hundred thousand dollars in debt from where they started thanks to interest.
Yes, while college is not -about- getting a good job, that is one of the appeals of it. Speaking with direct examples again, my stepdad is the maintenance planner for five separate mills at a large steel firm a half hour from my house. He's been at the corporation for 15 years, and we're moving soon to Florida where there's no relocating because this current job is centralized. He has a few offers from really nice places, but was flat-out ignored...meaning we don't even look at the scan of the resume'...because he only has two years of college-level education. Award-winning, fully competent guy...Every non-government place is hungry for him. But a degree matters. Maybe only partially in our industry, but a career nowadays -- not stacking clothes at Babies R Us -- a career almost always necessitates a degree. I agree with you wholeheartedly, if I could afford it I might only work on the side and spend the whole rest of my life going to school, because I love learning, I love education, and intrinsically, that's what it's about. But as you said we're speaking of the ''real world'' and in that context most people are going because they want to have a place to live that's not a shelter, and because they're responsible for more than just themselves.
I don't remember saying anything but that too-expensive-to-believe debt was a pain in the arse, and inhibits one's ability to get a good job at all......keeping it, especially for life, is a whole other matter and once again, you're right, only people who stick with a company and - unlike us - don't do contract work can enjoy that luxury. And that's even if =they= can -- stepdad's workplace here is likely going to fold because of tariffs in a few years; it's one of the reason's we're moving.... security....And it's been around for over 150 years....
Yeah, a lot of things suck, and yes, it's drastic, but I'm not looking for fellow complaints, I'm looking for activism, whether personal or otherwise... Viable solutions for easing the pressure because elimination is too broad for the scope of the individual. I never say never, and it's one of the reasons I will find work because there's nothing else I've ever wanted to do with my life and I'm good at it...where I lack I will only get better because I adapt to ANYTHING instantly and nearly hurt myself in my determination to improve.
What I'm challenging here are the states and conditions, not any specific case.
To get these jobs out there I think you need to acknowledge three things:
That these jobs require demonstrated ability, and that there are niche talents working in the biz that vie for the same jobs you are going for--and lastly studio politics.
The former is the only cachet a newcomer to the biz has. If you know people in the biz already then you have a leg up over the next guy.
Pros, in my experience really have only those two things..okay, three if you count jobs credits/experience.
Demostrated ability is an aside from those things already mentioned because there's people in the biz who "done" jobs, gotten credit for them, but have skill-sets that are not always adequate for the next job that comes along.
Like students graduating from a program, they can meet all the acedemic objectives of a course, but still LACK adequate art skills to make headway into the industry. This is the number one fallacy of any schooling.
Add to this the attribute of niche talents, that is people that have skill-sets or strengths in just a few genres. This is a reality of the biz.
People that are great doing funny stuff are not always suited to doing action-adventure, and vice versa.........and these self-same souls live in terror ( its safe to imagine) of being called upon to work in their weak area.
I know this well, as I've worked with people like this.
The ability to actually demostrate a skill goes beyond credentials, because you don't NEED credentials to genuinely make the claim--you can show you know the stuff. At the outset, usually this becomes plain in the artist's portfolio--and eventually becomes plain in their reputation with their colleagues.
My advice to to make damn sure you KNOW the stuff, backwards and forwards. That you have genuine demonstratable skills in the genre for which you are applying for. That you have some range to your skills and be able to pull off different styles.
If you are a niche talent--and its not a blight by any means--then there's some sweat involved in gaining new ground. Its simply a case of dedication.
Studio politics are the bane to everyone's existance. This is the nigh-unfathomable pettiness that comes into play when hiring choices are made.
Studios that acknowledge your skills, that you have communications with, but then they go and hire someone else. Its everything from hiring from the "old-boys network" ( yes, its real), to someone throwing a hissy-fit the day your samples come in the door, to the sinister aspect of racial profiling ( real too, I'm sad to say).
The only way to beat this, to my knowledge , to draw from Oprah Winfrey's definition of luck--that being preparation meeting with opportunity.
--Ken
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
First of all, thanks for the candid and informative response...
But that blurb there hit home the most, because most extremely experienced animators (as an example the ones that eventually become directors) have stories about certain guys they wanted to do certain shots/scenes, but someone with more swing got the pick and they felt from an artistic integrity point of view the feature lost something as a result...
The politics is the scariest thing for students to hear about, but I'm adjusting myself in emotional preparedness. In the schools it's extreme, not in what they should be talking about (closeness, buddy systems, who you know) but terrorizing over "well nobody has a chance of succeeding"...not just "hey, you know, maybe 5 of you will -eventually- get your ideal job....eventually"...but downright "you're here to delay your entry into the workforce, good luck having fun diddling with your skills because once you're outta here, you're worthless".......So I've tried to surround myself with energies of people who know what they're talking about (even if they agree)....the last school I went to the teacher wasn't even an animator (state school, by the by)...
We shall see... Again, thanks for your thoughts
Lot of actors have gone to college. Obviously not all of them. I went to college with Mandy Patimkin (sp?) and I know Meryl Strep went to Yale, for example. Some talented actors give up before they get their big break because they don't like the life style and scarfices required. Sometimes it's the most persistant one's that succeed. Passion drives persistance.
- Marla
The only way to beat this is to do one thing: have range to your talent.
Action/adventure, comedy, pre--school.......etc, be competent with it all. Master one of them, for interests sake, and attain competency in the rest.
Students in school tend to think tactically, not strategically ( putting it in military terms) meaning they do not look at their skills in the contextof the long-term.
I believe there is no "scary" subject in instruction. I believe this because the students that ARE freaked out by the reality don't belong in the business. Dose of reality it is, and its also a measured way of seperating the wheat from the chaff as it were.
Look...........in my classes I pass along something I call my 10% over 10 years rule ( actually less a rule per se, than a guideline) for graduates entering the animation biz.
It goes like this: take any average sized class, of say...20 students.
They all graduate, but the reality is that only about half can be expected to actually have drawing skills sufficient to gain immediate employment in the biz.
This is because a student can graduate on the academic merits of a program and still lack specific skill in drawing. They meet the technical standards but not the artistic.
So there's 10 students left.......10 who can gain employment at the outset.
Of those only 5 will be in the biz after about 2.5 years, 1/2 again, being weeded out because they find the biz to not be their thing, or they just can't gain steady work. They go off to do something else, leaving those 5.
2.5 more years later, there's about 2 left, who are still in the biz.
The others gave it a go, put their time in, but then decided........for whatever reasons that they weren't interested or were not able to continue.
Perhaps something drew them away from it, perhaps..........the reason are infinite.
So there's 2 left. These 2 have put in their dues, done a variety of jobs and gained new skills, they now have a skill-set that they can use to gain more work and can do so indefinitely.
If they make it to 10 years they can make a lifet-long career of the biz.
2 out of 20 is 10%.
Yes, this is scary...........sobering.........its also a general "rule" I've noted since I've been teaching over the past 6 years.
It not always consistent though, some classes might have half the grads STAY in the biz, others might have several classes go by before any of the grads get in--it balances in the end.
This, BTW, is the same for any vocation training program in almost any school.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
Thanks for the contribution, Marla...incidentally, I've only noticed recently how incredibly talented and diverse Mrs. Streep. Only as a lack of exposure. She truly is a class act, and a tops actress.
Mr. Davis, your guidelines is very interesting, and after all the things I've heard, half of me says "that's not soooo sobering, I've had a chance to get used to hearing things like that" and the other half doesn't care about the numbers because I want it really bad...I just cannot wait to get out there and prove it....reflect it with what talents I have. I think your number is very much on par, it seems like that'd be very realistic...and the most important note is keeping it over time so that it balances out. I know secondhand a lot of people, even people with talent, that it simply didn't work out for in many schools for many years. Then again, I've heard (from people here no less) about friendships that started in school and carried over in large groups even to the same company. It's a mixed bag.
Right now I'm just at a point where I'm practicing the animation aspect of things, because there's not a thing I can't draw, and at least in my circle of people's work I see and those around me in my life, I naturally and efficiently produce top-rate draughting. It's the using that to play to my strengths as I learn how to move what I draw that needs improvement, and that will be my focus...
Your expertise and information is appreciated, both of you.