9 mouth shapes

lip sync isn't really language specific. If you know the basic mouth shapes, they should apply to any language since we animate dialouge phoneticaly. One of my animation teachers from the US worked in Germany for several years and he said dialogue wasn't a problem, plus it's all charted out on the x-sheet phoneticaly anyway. Thats why you have to listen to the dialouge, and not just read what the person is saying.

Aloha,
the Ape

I took it as he/she meant redrawing mouths for an overseas dub.

http://www.garycmartin.com/mouth_shapes.html

It's weird that he says he uses Blair as a source; half of those aren't even accurate...

Okay, here's another link, or do try Googleing yourself. There enough stuff lying around on the web.

I just realized Preston has no "th" mouth shape. So I guess there should be 10 basic mouth shapes. Yeah, those 3D mouths a off a bit. Kinda creepy too. :D

Aloha,
the Ape

Actually he says the "L" works for the "TH" too. It probably should be a little different but... eh... whatever works.

Informative, but yes... creepy! :eek:

They must have had Wesley Snipes pose for those... :D

This is going to sound disparaging, but it truly is not meant to be. It is purely observation. From what I have seen, most of the people who are into "3D CGI animation," but not really all that familiar with actual animation in terms of theories, principles, techniques etc. usually align themselves with "whatever works" or "whatever gets them by." When I do a TH and an L in real life, the L is thin-tongued and sometimes even in the back of the teeth with the mouth slightly open, whereas the TH is relatively-flat tongued and the teeth rest on the tongue as it protrudes out past them. Pretty big difference, and a stickler would take the road less travelled by. But I think it's important to distinguish, though in 3D you don't have the time/means to re-morph every syllable, and I find I can make similar sounds for either one in either position so all's fair. But still what is natural, and by extension what looks natural, should be taken into account.

I imagine they figure it makes no difference as it flashes by on the screen so quickly. They could even be right. But I'm a perfectionist even where it isn't warranted. The so-called "move-imators" pick up what they know from an abstraction of the truth (like a game of telephone). I was just telling MightyMew the other day about the two-position walk cycle a teacher illustrated to us; contact and a passing/breakdown with a straight leg and one bent... nothing else. Just let the comp do the inbetweens, hand it in. If I were a working professional I'd take that as an insult -- do they imagine that's what really goes on at a studio? Are they like the bad Idol contestants and truly don't see a difference between Pixar-esque work and their own?

Anyhow, wow, sorry for the misdirectional rant. I promise I'll stay on topic next time =)

It might be dialectal, then. I say "eh" until such time as the tip of the tongue reaches something up top, then you hear the "ll" part of it. The only time it hits bottom teeth for me is when it goes back to a resting position.

As far as the "interesting note" it is interesting, but I would never apply that scenario to a cartoon. You have to be quiet or not enunciating your words clearly, mumbling. If I exaggerate to produce the roundest tones possible to read distinctly they each have their own thing going.

This is going to sound disparaging, but it truly is not meant to be. It is purely observation. From what I have seen, most of the people who are into "3D CGI animation," but not really all that familiar with actual animation in terms of theories, principles, techniques etc. usually align themselves with "whatever works" or "whatever gets them by." When I do a TH and an L in real life, the L is thin-tongued and sometimes even in the back of the teeth with the mouth slightly open, whereas the TH is relatively-flat tongued and the teeth rest on the tongue as it protrudes out past them. Pretty big difference, and a stickler would take the road less travelled by. But I think it's important to distinguish, though in 3D you don't have the time/means to re-morph every syllable, and I find I can make similar sounds for either one in either position so all's fair. But still what is natural, and by extension what looks natural, should be taken into account.

I imagine they figure it makes no difference as it flashes by on the screen so quickly. They could even be right. But I'm a perfectionist even where it isn't warranted. The so-called "move-imators" pick up what they know from an abstraction of the truth (like a game of telephone). I was just telling MightyMew the other day about the two-position walk cycle a teacher illustrated to us; contact and a passing/breakdown with a straight leg and one bent... nothing else. Just let the comp do the inbetweens, hand it in. If I were a working professional I'd take that as an insult -- do they imagine that's what really goes on at a studio? Are they like the bad Idol contestants and truly don't see a difference between Pixar-esque work and their own?

Anyhow, wow, sorry for the misdirectional rant. I promise I'll stay on topic next time =)

I seem to have struck a nerve... :D ... heh

When I said "whatever works" I was being sarcastic. I fully agree with you. Being a 2D animator, I realize there's no substitute for quality. I hope to learn alot more about mouth movement, especially while the character is in motion. And I could use some tips on timing the sync too. I'm kinda learning as I go.

Oh hey, that had nothing to do with you. Until you said something I didn't even know you had written those same words. Sometimes, well, all the time, I like to hear the sound of my own voice (written or otherwise) and I'm very opinionated, so you get stuff like that.

Yah, I repeat, total coincidence on the word front. Which makes it look even worse since I enclosed the bad-CGI people phrases in quotes. My bad and my respectful apologies.

From what I have seen, most of the people who are into "3D CGI animation," but not really all that familiar with actual animation in terms of theories, principles, techniques etc. usually align themselves with "whatever works" or "whatever gets them by."

But the lack of a proper "Th" mouth shape is also lacking from the actual Preston Blair examples. Not that Mr. Blair is one of them, but there are "whatever works" people in all mediums, not just 3D.

Yogyog, for animation, even if it's realistic, you have to exagerate the mouthshapes. Exagerate everything really, not just mouth shapes. The reason is that no matter how realistic a person is, deep down we humans can still tell it's not a real person with all their subtle movements. So becuase of this, animators have to push the actions, and lipsync to give the viewers more information in order for the action to look right. This is why motion capture or rotoscoping never looks quite right. Just my own theory.

Aloha,
the Ape

Theory? I think it's a law by now. It make sense. If you're going to have something look like a cartoon, make it move like one, act like one, because cartoons behave the way they do because it's the most effective way -for- them to.

And emphasis on proper TH. He has one, it just isn't what one would expect, it's bunched in with a whole list of other sounds you'd turn your head at. If I use any reference at all, it's never pre-drawn shapes. I believe there's a stronger bond of the mouth to the rest of the face's expression that needs to be honored because each piece of acting is so particular. In 2D we have the liberty of not having to spend 20 minutes to pseudo-sculpt those shapes, so take the freedom and enjoy it. I would never do a TH with a closed, all-teeth mouth missing a tongue, but that's exactly what's there. I can't even create it, naturally, with my own mouth.

And the quote-enclosed kinda people are more than just non-medium-specific, they are a fact of life in every way, but I wasn't excluding anyone else by commenting on 3DCGI. It was that I had recently noticed it was a trait particularly strong in this one group as a generalization, and only they had the level of tendency in my mind to be relevant in this particular conversation.

Here is something from Mudbubble.

Here is the Breeze lipsync tutorial for those who are interested.
http://macromedia.breezecentral.com/p48069653/

Here is where you can download the Breeze lipsync tutorial.
http://indiammug.com/downloads/flash/chrisBreezeLipSync.zip

Theory? I think it's a law by now.

But then, toons sometimes break the law, 'cos it's funny ;)

The matter of TH is only relevant in the English language. Other languages have other problems, I guess. If you concentrate too much on approximating (with exaggeration) the real-life lip movement, releasing in other languages than English is going to be nearly impossible. Perhaps that's why Preston Blair didn't include the TH -- it's too language-specific.

Depends on how many languages there are with which you're familiar. Tell the TH story to a Spaniard. Every person I've met from Andalucia uses TH instead of a soft C.

But your overarching point is a good one, to not lose yourself in an isolationist cultural hole.

Some animators take the "TH" to the extreme by drawing a fully extended tongue, being bitten firmly by a full set of teeth. On toons such as Ren & Stimpy and Tiny Toons, it's even juiced-up by a few droplets of spittle-spray. :D