Learn 2D or 3D?

Take the drawing and 2D course. Drawing skills are a great foundation for any animation career, 2D or 3D.

In addition to your courses, download and try out a 3D package. Alias offer a free "learner's edition" of Maya so that people can build their skills without a large initial cash outlay. And there are huge amounts of online resources that offer tutorials cheap or free. Maya isn't the only tool out there, but it is the one most commonly used in a production environment.

You end up with the best of both worlds - a solid grounding in drawing skills and the chance to find out if 3D is for you inexpensively. Have fun!

Programmers could never do an artists job! :P

I'm kidding. I think it's great that you want to get into animation. I to would suggest starting with traditional 2D animation first. You do get a better base knowledge of animation this way than if you just went straight into 3D. Also you find out how much work it really is. Most 3D schools you don't start animating till several semesters in. First they teach you how to use the program, then how to model, and rig, and light, then animate. You also might want to look into Animation Mentor. They are an on line animation school, and my friend and I agree that they are the best animation school that we've both been to. Their site is www.animationmentor.com. It was started by some PIXAR and ILM guys. Good luck.

Aloha,
the Ape

I would say it all depends on where you want to work when it's all said and done. If you want to go into 3D animation and you are on a limited schedule I would go the 2D class and 3D class route as long as the program was going to teach you the art of animation and not generic tutorials to learn the software.

But to be completely honest an one month course in drawing, 2D or 3D isn't going to get you very far especially if it's your first time taking classes in any of those fields. What will you have to offer to company animation-wise compared to someone who as studied it at a two or four year program or what kind of demo reel do you thing you can create in that amount of time.

Computer programming is an art in itself and if you took a month long class in that how far could you get? Do you think you could find a job with a months worth of experience.

Just things to thing about.

ed

It's my opinion to do the 2D and followed by 3D so once you get into 3D you have an idea of what it takes to animate. You can start applying the principles in the 3D and not try to be learning (as much about) animation and software at the same time. The more instruction you get on the principles the better. You will be getting drawing in the 2D class anyhow; I'd just get as much animation in as possible since that's what you really what to find out, if you like it or not.

ed

As a traditionalist, I would suggest a 2d animation course to get your mind around the principles of animation, such as timing, squash and stretch, anticipation, strong silhouettes, etc.

But strictly speaking there's no reason you can't learn those principles starting with 3d. The problem I've seen is that most 3d animation students, particularly those who come from computer programming or engineering, don't really focus on the movement aspects by using real life, and their animation really suffers because of it. Animators tend to get up and move around and look in mirrors or do sketches and thumbnails of movement. The students I've seen stay haunched over their computer screens trying to figure out how to move an arm from point A to point B.

So as long as you're not afraid to get up from your computer and observe how things move, be an actor for your character, then I'd say to stick with 3d. If you think you really need to concentrate solely on the fundamentals without also wrestling with the computer, I'd say try 2d and move on from there.

I had posted a reply about this very thing to another Montrealer. I had written this:

"I assume you are from Montreal (as am I). Finding a school in your proximity that can help you develop your talent and knowledge in animation will be tough. The best you will find in this neck of the woods in Concordia University, and they are shawdy at best. Ottawa (Algonquin College) has a very good animation program though, and it is government subsidized, so you will not pay an arm and a leg for it. If you are liking the idea of Vancouver, I would suggest that you look into Capilano college too, as they too have a good program. I am personally not a big fan of VFS... They are overproiced, and everyu portfolio I have seen from people applying for jobs from there is on the weak side."

Take a reputed 2D course first, especially in Montreal. Schools in 3D here are one-year intensive (at best), and all they teach you is the software, and very little about how things are supposed to move.

I will argue that this is the ONLY way to go until I am blue in the face. Yes, there are the odd exceptions to the rule, some keen hot-shots... But generally speaking, there are far more animation hacks who know the software packages well.

Cheers

If you are liking the idea of Vancouver, I would suggest that you look into Capilano college too, as they too have a good program. I am personally not a big fan of VFS... They are overproiced, and everyu portfolio I have seen from people applying for jobs from there is on the weak side."

Just to be fair regarding VFS--- Alot of those better portfolios you might not be seeing belong to the students that typically get hired pretty quickly right out of school.
Their number's are NOT admittedly large, though they are there.

I know, as I have taught (off and on)at VFS for almost 8 years now.

In ANY school program there's going to be a fair amount of mediocre talent emerging from the grad classes, its the same at VFS as it is at Cap College and anywhere else.
No argument on the expense, but that is what goes at a private school.

Fair enough... I never thought of that. All I kept seeing from grads of VSS in their portfolios is stuf that I had in MY portfolio BEFORE I went to college. Pretty shawdy. I suppose youa re probably right though about the hot-shots being snatched up right away, and not NEEDING to show me their portfolio here in Montreal.

My next point though is this ... Why pay the HUGE bucks for the private school (VSS) when you can get the same education at a gov't subsidized schools such as Cap or Algonquin? I doubt very much that VSS offers very much more than the others... Except maybe plaid skirts and knee-high socks to wear every day to school ;)

I have seen a great many private schools in this country that have mediochre professors (some whom I have fired in the past for being absolute hacks)... I wish it were actually true that you get a superior education at a private school than a non-private one, but I do not see this as the case.

However, I do not know VSS... I am speaking in general.

Cheers

No such thing as "3D." It's all 2D due to the limitations of the flat viewing screen and what the director &/or editor choose for you to see. I think what people are talking about is hand rendered illustrations and photo realism. It's impossible to recreate realism by hand. It's also impossible to create interesting stories and characters after the animation :eek:.

who knows-- you might be a storyteller.

my angle is this: some have a burning story in their head
and learn animation just so it can take form.

others spend their creative years learning techniques then
find themselves technically able but waiting for someone else's
story to work for.

if you're young, fire up your imagination.
the well does get dry in time.

My next point though is this ... Why pay the HUGE bucks for the private school (VSS) when you can get the same education at a gov't subsidized schools such as Cap or Algonquin?

Placement.

Simple as that. The waiting lists for gov't sponsored schools are a lot longer than most private schools, and for some folks that is a factor. Private schools can have up to six entries a year--every two months, where as gov't sponsored programs MIGHT have two--typically just one.
All the other factors can vary from place to place...

Just as an aside, either brand of schooling is, in essence, a "waste of money".
A bold statement to be sure, but its IS true considering that more than a few artists can be self-taught given the material that is now available.
Back in the 70's and early 80's, when schools with animation programs could be count on ONE hand, you either went to them, or learned on your own from whatever material was around. I'm self-taught--I know a fair number of colleagues that are as well.
If it was possible then, then why not now, given the ENORMOUS resources that exist today?
For around $500 dollars ( and likely LESS) in books and supplies, and internet access--anyone with the wherewithal can learn how to animate skillfully--if they are dedicated enough.
There's NO school on the planet that offers that cheap a tutition.
(of course, what breeds that steep discount is the time and self-exploration needed, but still.......... the means exist.)

The expense of schooling, public, or private is a non-issue, as far as I'm concerned, because if the students were truly savvy about things they'd realize that they don't have to spend all those bucks for the scraps of knowledge they can get with a few good books, and some drawing time.
Of course its not THAT easy, but the simple fact that self-taught artists exist from BEFORE the plethora of schools we have today says something.
Are the schools a cash-grab----oh, you betcha. All the way down the line, every school, public or private, functions as a business first and "school" second.
The moment a program becomes a money loser--its gone, right?
Every school lives or dies on enrollment--whether its private or subsidized.
If Cap College, or Alonquin, or Sheridan were private--what would they have to charge?
All of a sudden those $3-$4-$5,000 tutitions scoot up to $10-$15-$20,000 tutitions.
Think its grand that there IS a choice between private and public schooling for this craft--because they both offer something to the field.

Are there faults with staff? Yes.
Are there faults with facilities and equipment? Yes, always.
Are there faults with cirriculum, with the timetables, with tutitions? Yes.
With both.
Statistically, programs like Cap College can ( and likely do) turn out a more accomplished-level of student--but the trade-off is they do so with only one class a year. A school like VFS turns out the same number of skilled students, albeit with considerable more grads of only mediocre skill--simply because those "mediocre" students paying the tutition keep the school in business.
That's the service that gets offered and anyone with their eyes open can see that before they walk in the door.
The focused and committed student can get their instruction and subject time in a finite period and be out to pursue their career--typically a year. That's undeniably a selling point.
Also, undeniably, it can attract a student with unrealistic expectations--but whose fault is that??

Let's face something here (and a rant because this is something in my craw at the moment) animation is not the sole subject matter covered at private schools. There's hundreds of other subjects all offered in the same manner under the same circumstances--and offering the same "quality" of certification in doing so.
The students taking these courses often fall into what I call the 10% rule, that being only 10% of the graduating class will excel enough at the given craft/trade/skill to make a career-long living at it.
Its the same in every field.
I've seen students that could draw rings around their instructors wash out at VFS--- and seen the opposite; students that had weak drawing skills push themselves with hard work to demonstrate incredible improvement at the end of their course.
Just as I've seen students with no business being in a hundred miles of the school complete the courses as well.
And they were all paying customers.

I know HUNDREDS of people that have taken post-secondary training of some kind that are NOT pursuing that vocation professionally. They tried something, it didn't work and they landed a job in something else.
And that in private as WELL as public schooling.
Its reality all around us.

So.....a private school, like VFS, is not really doing anything different than any other private school of any stripe. ( For that matter, add almost any gov't sponsored school to that mix)
The difference is that there IS enough quality instruction and cirriculum at a place like VFS ( AND cap College and Alonquin) that students can take the courses, learn the stuff, be able to demonstrate their skills and gain employment IF they truly have the skills.
I've taught at both Cap College AND VFS ( and add Art Institute: Vancouver to that too) and I've seen their insides firsthand. I know the differences between their programs well enough to say that about the ONLY measurable difference, in the long run, is the money you pay.

That's a "take it for what its worth"--because at the end of the day, whatever the student brings to the table is the deciding factor.

who knows-- you might be a storyteller.

my angle is this: some have a burning story in their head
and learn animation just so it can take form.

others spend their creative years learning techniques then
find themselves technically able but waiting for someone else's
story to work for.

if you're young, fire up your imagination.
the well does get dry in time.

Add music, painting, sculpting, history, philosophy.......and a bit of everything else.

There's no such thing as a fully-trained animator--as with many crafts-- because OTHER things in life add nuances to the craft of animation.
Students fearful of drawing with a pencil, may as well be fearful of everything else because drawing is such a fundemental intuitive porcess. Denying skill, or exploration of skills, at drawing means..........in no uncertain terms, that the cost will be a weak animator.
Its not JUST pushing that pencil on a paper surface that's important, not just about making some lines.........its about a whole esthetic of design, a sensitivity towards shapes, light , shadow, forms, structure, appeal, dynamics hues, tones......and the juxtapositions of all those in concert and contrast with each other.

A LOT of people, flock to this field interested in the job TITLE, but not many are very interested in taking on the JOB.
Being, at least, willing to explore those things can open doors that others around you are simply too afraid to venture near.

That needed to be said, and you said it well. Probably one of the more all-encompassing well-rounded and concise posts on animation schools I've seen. It's cold truth that seems like bias, but only because the truth isn't what many people would like to face. It does break down pretty simply if you're willing to accept it.

It's not just Canada either; those statements are universal.

Hopefully you. :D

Hey Ken, I just have one final question on the subject. You have made some very good points thusfar, and are helping me to see the light a bit better. However, one thing still botthers me. If the private school is accepting so many students per year, then when do the instructors spend any time with each individual student, teaching one on one? That is one this I always appreciated when I was at Algonquin, was that the instructors wer ealways available for you to talk to, ask advice, and often they would seek you out to help you. I would just think that with that many admissions, the classes would be mighty impersonal.

Anyways... Just a thought

Cheers

if you're young, fire up your imagination.
the well does get dry in time.

I do not agree with that, the imagination will dry up if a person drops out of life. That is what too many of us do as we get older.

and in your forties.

there are many advantages to youth-- less responsibilities to
oneself and to others, no work concerns, financial issues,
health problems.

they don't even know how to compromise.
which i think is one foundation of creativity.

all these will chip away at your time, mental and emotional
resources. the passion might still be there, but the engine
won't be as strong as before.

drop out of life? no one can afford to. no one escapes life.
the best way is to deal with changes, both to yourself and
the world around you.

to assume that life will always be as it is,
is to find despair.

then again i hope you're right.

Hey Ken, I just have one final question on the subject. You have made some very good points thusfar, and are helping me to see the light a bit better. However, one thing still botthers me. If the private school is accepting so many students per year, then when do the instructors spend any time with each individual student, teaching one on one? That is one this I always appreciated when I was at Algonquin, was that the instructors wer ealways available for you to talk to, ask advice, and often they would seek you out to help you. I would just think that with that many admissions, the classes would be mighty impersonal.

Anyways... Just a thought

Cheers

It depends on the size of the class.
Some entries have 20 bodies, some only 10.
Obviously with 20 students, there's not really enough time to fully go one-on-one and it depends upon the instructor.
A few programs I've been exposed have empty blocks during the week, where the overall lead instructor can consult with students, or any on-staff instructor can. I used to do this on my spare hours at one school I taught at, and I know of colleagues that do this as well.
So there CAN BE coverage--but its not a solid offering in such an environment. Its really up to the instructor in that situation though and not a selling point as it should be.
There's another side to that too, and its an ugly one.

Admittedly, there's the law of attrition at play there too. Some students, for whatever reason, are reluctant to approach instructors for guidance.
I do not like that, but I acknowledge it.
One of the earliest lessons I had as a teacher was that I cannot save them all--and I cannot.
Some students, despite all resources, will fail or drift away. Thusly, all I can offer ( or ANY teacher/school can really offer) is guidance to those that come to me for it.
That ends up being the percentage that mostly makes it.

Yea, that sounds like a spurious justification for NOT doing what is really my job, but the grain of truth remains.
I don't like that aspect--never have, and only grudgingly accept it.

Part of the reason for this is the business aspect of a private school.
Putting 12 or whatever number of instructors on the full-time tab is expensive over the course of a year--at a $40-$60 hr wage, so instructors come in for their assigned blocks in a part-time situation, instruct and "hand off" to the next instructor.
Its a imperfect situation, but its done all over the place because its economical--both in private and public schools.