I was wondering what people on this forum thought of cel shading?
For those who dont know what cel shading(or toon shading as some people call it) its a cgi technique that makes your 3d animations look flat and 2d.Its used in several video games,futurama,a few advertisments(mr.clean is now cel shaded lol),and there was even some anime show that was made with cel shading i think it was called gundam something.(more info here http://search.aol.com/aolcom/redir?src=websearch&requestId=d5d7521a837670d4&clickedItemRank=5&userQuery=cel+shading&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCel_shading&title=Cel-shaded+animation+-+Wikipedia%2C+the+free+encyclopedia )
I really like cel shading(as if you couldnt tell).I guess i like the flat look in my hand drawn stuff so i like it in my cgi.It seems to me that most 3d animators hate cel shading because they like it looking 3d and if they wanted it to look 2d they would be traditional animators.
so what are your opinions?
like any other tool it all depends on how it is used. if you use it badly it will look bad ( i personally find the cel-shaded spiderman abominable) at the same time if you look at something like Legend of Zelda (i know its for a game) but that looks very well done.
3d cell shading looks good in games,and if it mixed with 2d *like futurama* but other than that it looks,i dunno..kinda cheap,and would just looks better drawn.
only my opinion.i didn't really like it when they did it in that anime *apple seed i think* looked good on the robotic characters,but on the human characters it was kinda like *wtf*
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we did a project where we used cell shading, and to be honest I'm just not convinced... it lost so much of the delicate face acting and hand gestures, that I really felt like we were wasting a lot of work that if we had used a different technique would have looked much better. if people want a 2d look, they shoulc just use traditional animation! it does work as an auxiliary technique (like in the already mentioned futurama) but, as a look I feel that I just doesn't cut the mustard
"check it out, you know it makes sense!" http://miaumau.blogspot.com/
Personally I hate it. The only solid case for using it is for props or robot type characters in an otherwise 2d animated film. And even then, it can look too geometrical, and you don't necessarily have to use it. I suppose it makes sense to use it for computer games which are pretty much all 3d now anyway, and can wind up looking too busy.
Getting past my personal predjudices, I think it's much like a photoshop filter. It can look really tacky if you use it without proper consideration, but you could probably use it to very good effect, or develop it as part of an interesting overall look if you are artistic about it.
yep,is most cases, cell shading is the photoshop lens flare of the 3d animation world :p
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actually i dont think i have seen anything cel shaded look tacky or cheezy.I have however seen a cheezy non-cel shaded model(http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/12430618/) turn into a nice polished cool cel shaded model(http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/12430682/) .
yeh but meanwhile we are thinking,why didn't he just draw it? or model something thats not already a 2d character and looks exactly the same.
Things like a 2d animator trying to make his work look 3 dimensional is understandable for me,but the other way round,seems a bit..odd? u know?
but artists will be artists,aslong as the guy enjoyed doing it i spose.there was a few episodes of futurama where bender was 3d like that...
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The most prominent example of cell-shading that comes to my mind is the MTV Spiderman series by Mainframe.
IMO, it looks horrible.
It's like taking a step backward with a tool that's meant to take steps forward. I suppose there's better, more successful examples of it being used and done right--but that one example certainly didn't impress.
"We all grow older, we do not have to grow up"--Archie Goodwin ( 1937-1998)
I don't like cel shading, either. It's neither here nor there and to my mind doesn't really have a place among other forms of TV or theatrical animation. It's OK for video games trying to capture that old school look while providing gamers with the possibility to explore the game world in 3D. But other than that, no thanks.
I agree, our company often works with 3d and cartoonshaders for the backgrounds of our 2d animations, because you've more freedom in the perspectives, it saves a lot of time and money(this is why I use it also for my film...). But drawn backgrounds are defintely more beautiful. By the way, for cuirous geogre, they developed a new technique called Ultraplane: They've got 3D dummies for the background objects and poject the drawn backgrounds on it.... hmm
http://violabaier.blogspot.com/
I absolutely love toon shading, but only when it is done right. I ended up buying Tomcat cartoon shader for Maya ( the good one, not the crappy free one on Hi-end 3D) and had amazing results. As a 2D animator at heart, applying the toon shader to my 3d models really added a lot to the end aesthetic. I was able control light and soft shadow, and was able to have my lines contoured, as if I drew it myself in 3d space. Fot toon shaders to please many, it seems the most vulnerable area is the shader's ability to create artistic, accurate "outlines".
I'd suggest not to shoot down these shaders, as some of them can be quite cool, and some aren't so hot. Its experimental.
The problem with cel shading is it is just soooo noticable. It is like "wow, done on a computer" that is not something you want people to say. It is kinda like a basic filter in photoshop. everybody knows it.
Whenever Cel Shading is added in tv (futurama, family guy) it is always so noticable. Futurama did it pretty well though in most cases.
Windwaker (the zelda game) was alright. i dont know.
It is what it is.
"who wouldn't want to make stuff for me? I'm awesome." -Bloo
well i mean all cgi is like that.toy story and monsters inc didnt fool me into thinking they were stop motion.You can tell its cgi and honestly it didnt bring down the movie.
futurama did really good with cel shading.Most of the time it fit the show and didnt seem out of place except whenever bender flies out of the ship or something(then it looks bad for 3 seconds lol).
I havent seen it in family guy except for a background when peter was drivng a car and looking at a jughead comic, is it used other than that?
I think that cel shaders work for props,backgrounds,and for artwork but i dont think they can carry a show.Its like when video games have scenes with characters talking to show the story before you play a level.It just doesnt look right.
Toy story and Monsters Inc weren't trying to look like stop-motion. They developed their own aesthetic.
I find cel-shading is a bit like fake plastic flowers or imitation wood. It can sometimes look pretty good, but ultimately it is a cheap imitation. But it shouldn't be totally written off, since the same techniques can be used to create a variety of unique looks.
The one on just last sunday was full of it. A background was. A few jeeps were.
"who wouldn't want to make stuff for me? I'm awesome." -Bloo
ok ill have to start paying attension to it.I havent been watching it on fox.
?
i dont understand that. could you elaborate a lill?
I don't understand it properly too. A friend who was animating on Curious George told me that. I think they texture it on the objects or something like this. I'm very cuirous, how it will look like...
http://violabaier.blogspot.com/
man i saw some bits of curious george on photo and im not sure how well it will do. dosent look terribly attractive.
.
I always thought the tractor looked pretty bad in Secret of Nimh. It's definitely not as clean as the model work in 101 Dalmations. It turns out there's an interesting reason why it looks the way it does. Unlike the work in 101 dalmations, which was white models with black lines photographed through stop-motion, the Nimh tractor footage was actually 8mm handheld footage of a real tractor.
While I think celshading would technically look better in this case, the way it was done was more interesting. But I doubt Bluth has any plans to redo it, and even still the 3d work in his films often sticks out like a sore thumb anyway.
what we (again) would end up deciding is that
it's a matter of taste-- both by the creator's
artistic decision and viewer's personal taste.
it would benefit us more if we discuss why
it works, and still doesn't on some part.
the main observation of people not liking NPR
is still tied up to 3D movement. They see it
looks like a cartoon, but it doesn't move or
act like a cartoon. Hence NPR sucks.
But how can it? It just paints solid colors!
toon shading is exciting not for what it is now,
but for what it promises it to be.
the only downside to cel shading for me are
two (judging only from a Max standpoint):
the sensitivity where to add INTERNAL lines,
which is so critical with 2D animation as it is
the foundation of line of action, expression,
squash and stretch.
second, the way it produces shadow contours.
faithfully following shadows in mathematical
precision is too distracting and ends up,
ironically "visually inaccurate".
as with any medium, design styles play a
definitive role in its success. more so with
any aspect of 3D which is mathematically
based, and therefore lacks design freedom
as compared to 2D.
designs in 3D should work around its weaknesses.
like the designs in 2D (during the pre-3D days)
avoided animated backgrounds and props,
animating in z-axis, crowd animation, etc.
Arbitrarily grabbing 3D techniques and slapping it
into old 2D design ideas and concepts end up
with a bad taste in our mouths.
Toon shading is exciting. and if we can figure out
how to solve these problems, it would be more
fun than cumbersomely tweakish.
Don't worry. All shall be well.
i guess thts the one im talking bout too in my post. thts one of the worse things i have seen on tv
I thought it worked fine in the [i]Iron Giant.
[/i]It seems like they don't make a 2D movie anymore without some cel-shading in it.
I guess I can usually take it or leave it.
The cel-shaded Bender and Santa on Futurama never worked for me. You probably shouldn't hand-draw a character in one scene and then cel-shade him in the next. :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cel-shaded_animation
Is this the origin story where George loses his tail in the lab experiment?
I agree. They should have stuck with the original book illustration style, if anything. :(