major curriculam comparision of BFA and MFA in animation

Good luck!

Hello all,
In response to some of the ideas presented here, I would like to offer additional information for those who may be pondering this question.

My first nugget is that there is no absolute truth about the value of attending graduate school. Choosing to earn an advanced degree in any subject field is strictly a matter of personal choice. One must manage to their own personal objective(s) and goals.

If one is seeking only skill sets, then one needn't even attend college at all. For example, animation could be learned by rotoscoping existing work and visiting the local library for information relating to animation. The info is all out there and available to everyone. Information alone is generally not the reason a person attends college. College teaches a person to set goals and to attain them, and college shows that a person is "trainable". College is a socialization process that teaches the values of the educated and propertied classes. The reasons for attending college will likely vary from person to person.

College is one of the ways to acquire specific information, and also a place to turn that information into knowledge. Knowledge is applied information over time. College therefore, may be a place to acquire information and apply it, within the context of a learning environment. Educators are, for the most part, interested in your learning.

Additionally, colleges, universities and trade schools are the places that one may gain access to the equipment used, and required, in our very technologically based medium. A fully working studio, with a priority of production that is trying to manage money, quality and time, will not likely take on apprentices unless they can get them for free or very little. Make no mistake, this is the entertainment business, which means it is comprised of (at most) 25% entertainment. As such, it is not in the interest of a studio to train you for a higher paying position; they have an agenda to create their work for the marketplace for as little money as possible. Labor and benefits are their highest costs. It is in their interest to pay you as little as they can, and to get as much work from you as they can. If you have a degree or an advanced degree, you are more competitive for other positions, given that you also have skills and experience. It is in a studios interest to train you to do a specific task very well and very fast, thereby increasing your output, and increasing their profit margin. An advanced degree will teach you the whole production process and will make you more upwardly mobile, and more competitive for other positions. They will therefore, need to pay you more in order to keep you.

An advanced degree will give a person more options, albeit at the cost of a spendy education.

What are the possible avenues for someone in animation?
1. Employment in the industry.
2. Independent production/direction.
3. Teaching.

Which of these are more accesible to a person who possesses an advanced degree? Is it in the studio's interest to give you access to the equipment and software with which you may learn? Is it in the studio's interest to give you the time needed to learn these new skills?

Additionally, an advanced education will allow a person to explore avenues associated with creating their own content. How is it in the studio's interest that you may create content that that competes with their "pitches" to the networks? Every show you create and successfully sell, is a contract that they lost. Frankly, they don't have an interest in helping you to develop your skills fully. There's no money in it for them.

Professional educators, on the other hand, have an interest in helping young creative people to live up to their creative and scholarly potentials. Every person we train and educate, who becomes a successful director or producer, is a success story for us. Do you think we educators work in academe for the money? Of course not. We do it because we love it, and because we find joy in student successes and development.

Educators not only help people to create content, but also to critically evaluate content. We help people to understand and evaluate the information they receive (and create) within historical and sociological contexts. Many professional animators may be very good at their jobs (and, as some as said, they have the equivilent of an honorary Master's Degree), but it may be true that that they are quite singularly faceted. I have worked with excellent animation directors who are very good at making cartoons, but display a lack of some essential knowledge about the broader world we live in.

It is my belief that many professional animation directors who do not possess college degrees or advanced degrees, find an advanced degree to (strangely) be an affront and challenge to their own feelings. You might here something like, "You don't need an advanced degree, after all, I don't have one and I am a great cartoon director". While it may be true that one does not need an advanced degree to make good cartoons, statements such as these are likely more about their feelings about not earning a degree, rather than about helping you to reach your goals and dreams by earning one.

Is it in your interest that you do not earn and advanced degree, or theirs? Everyone has an agenda, even if it is not easily discernable by the words they speak, or the truths and knowledge they espouse.

It is also my belief that Industry professionals view educators as somehow being less qualified, and even as incompetent because they do not make films professionally. Educators, oftentimes, are viewed as being "those who cannot do". That is, after all, why they teach instead of making films or doing animation right?

Nothing could be farther from the truth in most instances. Professional educators are generally people who care about others (The studio won't hesititate to fire you if you don't do what they tell you). Education doesn't work like that. Not only do we tolerate your mistakes, we encourage you to make them in college so you don't make them in the workplace. Great lessons are learned from making mistakes, and there is value in making them. Is that how the studio views costly mistakes? Likely not. In addition, the studio doesn't want it's employess to think; they want them to produce. They are on a frame budget.

Again, it is strictly up to the individual to determine what course they take to achieve their own personal goals. Consider this however, professional educators do something vastly different than what professional animators or filmmakers do. We don't develop a more efficient, less costly production process. If knowledge is power, then in whose interest is gaining it?

Education's artisitic medium is the human mind.

Brian Wells MFA
Professor of Animation

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond.... animation program at SCAD is intense. I've hardly slept since I started! ;)

If you want to rake more traditional animation classes, as you said, they will probably make some of the 200 level ones your prelims and then you can substitute 300 and 400 level classes for your electives. That's what I'm doing to get some good traditional classes. I just wanted to make sure you know that course substitution is an option. Where are you at in this process now?

Hey Meleponie,

If you really want to do an MFA - then you seem to be doing it right- what I mean by that is that: [B]YOU ARE TAKING CHARGE OF YOUR EDUCATION.
[/B]
Believe it or not - a whole lot of students do not- and frankly, I have no idea why.

Stick close to Phil- he's a good guy! Sounds as though, you have already figured things out for yourself. Bravo!

Keep in mind those extra classes will add a year to your education- but if you are dedicated and have the resources- Great!

Now go get yourself over to those life drawing sessions on Fridays and Sundays ( and over at Sequential on Saturday mornings).

Thanks.

It is my belief that many professional animation directors who do not possess college degrees or advanced degrees, find an advanced degree to (strangely) be an affront and challenge to their own feelings. You might here something like, "You don't need an advanced degree, after all, I don't have one and I am a great cartoon director". While it may be true that one does not need an advanced degree to make good cartoons, statements such as these are likely more about their feelings about not earning a degree, rather than about helping you to reach your goals and dreams by earning one.

Is it in your interest that you do not earn and advanced degree, or theirs? Everyone has an agenda, even if it is not easily discernable by the words they speak, or the truths and knowledge they espouse.

Sez you.

I don't find a degree to be an affront. I just do not find it something to be at all necessary.
I AM one of those self-taught critters, but that is really beside the point.
My own personal education isn't a influence in evaluating ANOTHER person's needs requirements for a career in animation. My career experience and the environment I encounter daily on the job is my criteria for evaluation.

Animation, quite simply, is a performance craft. You either can do it, or you cannot--and your worth is judged on your performance--at least in industry. The work you do is either good enough to earn a living off of, or its not.
A paper pedigree will not change that one whit.

Your comments about agendas and personal feelings regarding students are something of a slight.
When I became a instructor, my reasons were to give "something back" to the craft and to give my own career a sense of renewed purpose.
Training the new guard, as it were.
That was my agenda-and I think its the "agenda" of most non-degree holding instructors.

I've a very plain-stated and honest look at the whole teaching thing: the students that graduate, that have the stuff to gain work in the biz--they become MY COMPETITION for jobs. Not all jobs, but there's some.
Some might be colleagues working alongside me, some might land a position I sought. Some I might get over them.
Hey, that's fair.
A supervisor of mine once said " students are like our children, we want them to eat us and take our place."

Or something to that effect.

The program can be a degree or simple certificate program, its all the same to me, the outcome is trying to have students ready to WORK in the business--if that is their goal.

The crux is that a degree is VALUELESS to a animator, if there's no way it can make them a better artist--or if they don't want to become a teacher.
Certainly in my own 21 year cartooning career, a degree would be nothing more than a gained landmark--it'd do nothing to alter the kinds of jobs I'll get from this point on.

That is why I remain critical about degrees.

It is also my belief that Industry professionals view educators as somehow being less qualified, and even as incompetent because they do not make films professionally. Educators, oftentimes, are viewed as being "those who cannot do". That is, after all, why they teach instead of making films or doing animation right?

Nothing could be farther from the truth in most instances. Professional educators are generally people who care about others (The studio won't hesititate to fire you if you don't do what they tell you). Education doesn't work like that. Not only do we tolerate your mistakes, we encourage you to make them in college so you don't make them in the workplace. Great lessons are learned from making mistakes, and there is value in making them. Is that how the studio views costly mistakes? Likely not. In addition, the studio doesn't want it's employess to think; they want them to produce. They are on a frame budget.

I've seen instructors hired simply to fill holes, simply because they had a certain job credit that seemed to fit the bill.
I've also seen/heard of schools that switched/sought to switch to degree programs and looked at replacing their SKILLED non-degree holding instructors with Masters-holding staff.
Never mind if that Masters holding instructors in a lot of those disciplines are hard to find, the school(s) in question didn't CARE if they worked in those disciplines, only that they held Masters degrees.

The real value to a student seeking to enter industry is to train with instructors familliar with industry. Not theoretical, practical.

I'll give you an example: I know of no animation program anywhere that teaches a student how to fill out a work invoice for work-for-hire.
I've conversed with hundreds of students, some from other programs and no-one else approaches the degree of preparation for industry quite that way--so I took it on myself to do just that. I showed students how to fill out said invoices.
They were clueless otherwise, and studio accounting departments were not always recpetive to newcomers not knowing. What's that old saw about forewarned and forearmed?

That's just one of ...hundreds of possible examples. Its not theoretical, its something an instructor would have to experience to share.
Practical experience..........day-to-day experience shows a student what they can expect ON THE JOB, from the work habits to working cultures and office politics.
When a school hires on a instructor of 15-20 years worth of working experience, more than likely they are getting the equivilant of a "Masters degree" holding instructor, and chances are that instructor is STILL doing part-time freelance/contract work work on the side.

For my money, I'd want someone that actually does it for a living to tell me how to do it for a living. Not some bloke with a Masters for doing experimental animation trying to tell me how to contruct a character for a Warner Bros Cartoon.

To embrace a military though for a second: "Train like you fight". I find that to be a good analogy--a realistic environment to set up for a student.
It places real world stressors on them, with real-world demands and the school environment allows for some mistakes to me made.
It also facilitates pruning as well.

I've grown to have a bit of a cold-hearted thinking on this--that some students are just not meant to pursue this career path.
Schools love to flaunt the very liberal ideal that ANYONE can do this stuff--simply because it keeps warm ( paying) bodies coming in the door. I've touted that line myself , as a company man working for private schools.
In reality, not everyone has the disposition for this craft.
Yea, that's regrettable, but...........c'est la vie.
Show me an occupation where its different?

If the student's going to end up in industry, might as well have them train in a industry-like environ, complete with industry-like consequences.
At worst, they'd be over-prepared for any situation they might encounter on the job, but that's to their advantage.

Studios want their staff to solve problems--which is very close to thinking.
They want production, but they also want solutions too. That not only addresses the bottom-line, but addresses GETTING to the bottom-line as well.

If someone wants the pedigree of a degree, that's fine. Its a lot of money for a piece of paper and a title--but its their money to spend.

Last thought: this whole debate comes down to a funny commerical for me.
The Fed Ex ( I think) one of a few years ago, where the "new guy" comes in and is put to work mailing some stuff for the company by one of the staffers.
He coyly explains he's " an MBA", suggesting that this kind of task is beneath him.
The staffer goes: " Ooooh.......an "MBA" , and then suggest something even simpler. Its a wry spot, it also kind of sums up my thoughts on all this, albeit in a sarcastic way.

I've seen instructors hired simply to fill holes, simply because they had a certain job credit that seemed to fit the bill.
I've also seen/heard of schools that switched/sought to switch to degree programs and looked at replacing their SKILLED non-degree holding instructors with Masters-holding staff.
Never mind if that Masters holding instructors in a lot of those disciplines are hard to find, the school(s) in question didn't CARE if they worked in those disciplines, only that they held Masters degrees.

That's the Law. Degree granting institutions, whether private or not, answer to accediting bodies which are government entities. It's not true at all that they don't care.

It can be argued all day long whether it's right or wrong, but arguing the myriad of points won't change anything. If one wants to teach at a degree granting institution, one must possess the terminal degree in the subject area. If one wants to work in the public sphere, then one must be subject to the laws that regulate it.

The MFA is often not even considered a terminal degree by many education administrators, even though it IS the terminal degree in the arts. I have taught at state institutions where the Ph.D. was considered the only real terminal degree, and an MFA, MBA, or other professional degrees were viewed as being less. That is the direction public education seems to be going.

One of the reasons for this seems to be because colleges and universities are busy pumping out people with advanced degrees and there are few jobs in higher education for them to occupy. The result is that there are many very (educationally) qualified candidates, and few positions for those Ph.Ds to occupy. I have even seen academic teaching positions in the creative fields advertise for Ph.D. candidates to fill the positions. While I vehemently disagree with this trend, because creative fields should be staffed with creative, skill oriented teachers, the simple fact is that universities aren't necessarily looking for good teachers. They are looking for grant writers and researchers, for every field.

Are you under the impression that higher education cares about the highest quality teaching? They don't. While teaching is one criteria for retention, it is only one of them, and it is not the most highly valued criteria. Research, teaching and service (to one's field, to one's institution, and to one's community) are all taken into consideration. Reaserch is the most highly valued criteria for retention.

Research in animation means furthering the medium by creating new and innovative content, and by publishing theoretical perspectives in animation journals. Those are academic pursuits, and academia is the field we are talking about right? It's the academic arena, not the animation arena. Confusing the two is an incorrect basis for exploration of the topic.

Universities are seeking researchers who can bring prestige to their institution, and grant writers who can bring in the needed funds. The arts do not generate revenue for universities, they cost money. There are few grants for the arts, but many for the sciences, math and technology. That's just the reality for government institutions.

I am not defending the way government institutions operate, or why. I am just telling you what I have learned in my many years of working in the public sphere. There's also likely much that I do not know about them too.

What I do know is that until you have a terminal degree in your field, and then work in public education for a decade, you probably don't have an solid knowledge base from which evaluate the finer points of the argument objectively, thoroughly and thoughtfully, taking all perspectives into consideration.

I realized that I didn't address the needs and trends of private educational institutions. At current, that is where I teach, having left state education because of the affore mentioned incongruities and issues. Quite simply, in animation, skills are generally what private education is contracted to provide it's student constituency. That being said however, if they offer a formal degree, then they too are subject to the laws and regulations of accrediting bodies.

There are some major differences between the priorities between public and private institutions. While public universities value research as the most valuable faculty retention factor, private educational institutions do not require a research component for retention in the skills-based, creative fields. Indeed, they are seeking dedicated teachers who possess the terminal degree and significant professional experience (I happen to be one of those rare birds). These educators are difficult to find because the incentives (financial remuneration) for teaching are not competitive with animation industry pay scales.

Given the choice between hiring a full time teacher with a terminal degree, and one with industry experience and skills, without a terminal degree, these institutions might opt to meet the law's requirements in order to retain their acceditation. Accreditation for a degree granting institution is critical and their institution will be significantly and negatively affected if it is lost. The criteria for acceditation is rigorous, and people lose their jobs if it is not maintained. Accreditation criteria also includes hiring instructors in "appropriate terminal degrees". The more of these they have, the better the institution looks, on paper (to receive its annual federal funding).

If it were your job to ensure that your department met accediting criteria (or you would lose your job), what would you do? Hire and retain industry pros with no formal education, or hire and reatin the best possible candidates that you could find with "approapriate terminal degrees"?

Administrators in private education know that professional fields like animation need qualified and skilled teachers with professional experience. The students know and want these types of teachers too, and many industry pros do teach. They just aren't qaulified to teach full time in a field (academia) that is becoming more competitive too.

Again, we are talking about the academic arena. Who signs the paychecks in academia? What do they value, and who do they answer to?

Follow the money. Heh.

I've grown to have a bit of a cold-hearted thinking on this--that some students are just not meant to pursue this career path.
Schools love to flaunt the very liberal ideal that ANYONE can do this stuff--simply because it keeps warm ( paying) bodies coming in the door. I've touted that line myself , as a company man working for private schools.
In reality, not everyone has the disposition for this craft.
Yea, that's regrettable, but...........c'est la vie.
Show me an occupation where its different?

If the student's going to end up in industry, might as well have them train in a industry-like environ, complete with industry-like consequences.
At worst, they'd be over-prepared for any situation they might encounter on the job, but that's to their advantage.

I agree with Ken... I'm currently in art school and mind you, most of my teachers don't even have a Masters degree and are part-time/working in the industry; however there is definitely grade inflation going on. As long you attend every class and do something, you can get a B. This leaves a lot of [bad] artists thinking that everything is and will be fine and dandy. These are the kids who go home and never practice drawing, because they are unaware how important it is to keep improving and are living in a fake dream the system set them up in. As a result, I've basically adopted the attitude that a B = failure. One of my teachers complained about this too. He said if you just want the high grade, he won't bother you, but if you really want to improve he can help you, if you let him.

I agree with Ken... I'm currently in art school and mind you, most of my teachers don't even have a Masters degree and are part-time/working in the industry; however there is definitely grade inflation going on. As long you attend every class and do something, you can get a B. This leaves a lot of [bad] artists thinking that everything is and will be fine and dandy. These are the kids who go home and never practice drawing, because they are unaware how important it is to keep improving and are living in a fake dream the system set them up in. As a result, I've basically adopted the attitude that a B = failure. One of my teachers complained about this too. He said if you just want the high grade, he won't bother you, but if you really want to improve he can help you, if you let him.

Yes, I've maintained this POV all along.
A student can complete the program to the ACADEMIC standard, get's B's or A's and STILL lack the necessary developed talent to gain work in the industry.
This is a VERY common situation in both public and private schools, because PAYING students are the life-blood of the school and the program.

Cerification of the teaching staff means very little if the staff lacks industry experience first. A degree pedigree is useless if the instructor lacks actual experience on the job, and not just a few years either.
Finding animation teachers with degrees AND more than 10 years of industry experience is VERY difficult.
This is most of why I find degrees to be impractical and unnecessary.
Animation, as a profession, is NOT dependant on certification in any sense, its dependant on performance/ability.
Degrees establish only an artificial certification (as far as animation goes)......they are not a common-ground standard of ability.

Unless one is going to teach animation at a later time, thinking a degree has any value in a animation career is a delusion.

.... so you are going to get your bfa at SCAD and then apply for the MFA? Did you mean it is going to take 3 quarters to finish your BFA? That's not bad. Good luck with it and have some fun. Maybe I'll see you around (though I don't think we'd know it!).

Have fun Folks!

I have several former students working in LA flying for St. Patrick's day!

Best,

I've been reading this thread because I too am considering whether to aim for a MFA program or do a second round of undergrad to develop my foundations in animation from my in-process BFA in studio art, or whether I would be able to take foundation classes to prepare me for the MFA.
However, something that hasn't really been brought up is the difference in financial assistance in BFA and MFA programs. I have no personal experience with this, but I have heard from many people that there is a great deal more of financial aid available for graduate programs than there is for undergrads. Unfortunately, I only know one person in grad school at the moment, and they're there for English, so I don't know if there is any difference in comparison to art schools. But, as someone who's deciding between a second BFA or a MFA, financial aid is a factor, though not nearly so much as the curriculum.

So, I guess what I'm hoping to find out is if there's any truth to the presumed greater financial assistance in MFA programs, as well as the possibility of and how reasonable it would be to take foundation classes to prepare me for an MFA.

*squints* I hope what I typed made sense...I didn't get much sleep last night..

My expereince when I was in college ... and at times when I have taught at a college level - is that when it comes to animation, professionals who can teach make the best instructors.

Just because someone has an MFA - it does not qualify them to teach. In fact, they seem to do more damage- especially when they teach at the BFA level.

Someone who has gotten their information "out of book" has no real idea about production standards and the production process and production schedules...or the professional ethos required.

My classes at Art Center were taught by professionals- these pros offered SKILLS ( in animation and art) - something really lacking at many colleges BFA programs.

SKILLS ARE VERY IMPORTANT AT THE BFA LEVEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The MFA level is to explore- to be able to take those skills from the BFA level and be able to fly.

I have known many instructors who have not worked in the industry and each is hampered in some way with their teaching. Some are art or graphic artists or independent animators (most experimental) or graduates with MFA's - and the fact is when it comes to delivering the "nuts and bolts" information they have no "chops".

Thanks.

Wow, I seem to have stumbled onto a very interesting conversation here. I am an MFA student at SCAD.... so I will offer my two cents.

Maulik13, if you haven't already applied, I'd say go for the MFA... or even consider the MA. I'll tell you why:

1)if you haven't had a lot of experience with animation or art, SCAD will require you to take those foundations courses as preliminaries to the grad program. So you'll still get to take those courses and improve those skills. MFA students get 6 electives to choose, and you can substitute undergrad classes for those electives (some paperwork involved, but no big deal.) I'm going to do this with two of Phil Young's 2D animation courses, for example. Also, you can take as many extra undergrad classes as you want. They won't count toward your degree program, but if you think you need or want them, so what. You will end up paying more for the grad program.... instead of 6 quarters you will probably end up adding more to tack on the extra undergrad classes, but you will probably still finish in less than the 4 years it takes for the bfa. And the difference between tuition for undergrad and grad is not very much at scad, especially compared to some other schools.

2 ) if you already have a degree you probably don't want to take general education courses again.... but chances are some of your gen eds won't transfer over right, and you'll end up taking some science or history classes you have no need for. (one of the ways colleges squeeze more money out of you;) )

3) You cannot get federal financial aid for a second bachelor's degree, but you can for an MFA or MA

4) If at some point down the road you decide you'd like to try teaching, that MFA will probably make it much easier for you to get the job.

Now.... as for what the rest of you are saying.... Of course it is an animator's skills and portfolio that make him hirable and successful as an animator. Yes... on the job training is probably much more practical than education in a sheltered institution. However, this industry has changed a lot over the years and there simply aren't as many entry-level positions as there used to be. Especially if you're interested in 2D, all the inbetweening and even animation jobs are being outsourced. If you want to work in 2D in the states, you pretty much need to be good enough to get on a small team of storyboard artists or character layout artists. There is a lot of talented competition and you need to be very skilled to even get an entry-level job. For some of us, when we finish undergrad, we don't feel that our skills are up-to-par yet. Maybe we need some more technical education, maybe we need a few more years of practice, or maybe we went to the wrong school or took the wrong major in the first place. For me personally, I got a great education in filmmaking and art foundations, but wanted to improve my technical animation skills. Yes I could do this on my own, but it is far better to have the advice and critique of professors and peers to offer suggestions, see things I can't notice in my own work, and help me refine my eye. I also would really like to be a professor someday. Yes I want to get industry experience first, but it just makes sense for me to get the terminal degree now while I'm still in love with education and before I have children to support. Maybe there are cheaper ways to do it, but I am confident that if I work hard and take advantage of the resources available at SCAD, I will come out a much more skilled and hirable animator. Also... I personally am intrigued by the idea of making my own films and could use the grad curriculum to help me develop my own style.

Also, I have often been reminded that who you know is very important in this business. This is another area where going to a college with a respected animation program can help. If the school can get employers to recruit there, that makes your job networking easier. College automatically provides you with contacts of your professors and peers who can be valuable later on in life.

Another thing. Although I know this is not how eveyrone works, and certainly should NOT be... I have heard people say that if a resume comes accross their desk with the words CalArts on it, they are much more likely to pop in the demo reel. So there is at least some value in an education in this field.

I don't really believe it is the degree that is valuable, but the information, experiences, skills, and contacts that come from the process of earning the degree. You can get a degree that means nothing. You can become a talented animator without a degree. But for some people it is simply easier to develop those skills at a college, than in between shifts at the local burger joint while living in your parents basement. College provides a great opportunity for people to devote themselves entirely to their studies while taking advantage of many resources.

Ultimately, it is a very personal decision, and each aspiring animator needs to decide if the degree or terminal degree is right for him. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't.