Any professionals willing to give an ambitious animator some advice?

Both Paul and myself love drawing, for pleasure and as a means to visualise the process of animated film-making. At a personal level It is a great asset for me to be able to externalise my thought processes. I think on this everyone is agreed.

Just to be clear, we we have taken issue with is the idea being put forward of the lack of traditional skills being a hindrance to modern animation career success. In my experience this is not the case. People are hired for their output and not the process involved in its creation. Everyone works differently, and I know plenty of animators who can successfully deliver shot work of the highest standard without having to draw a single thumbnail.

I hope this goes a way to explicate our position on the matter.
Thanks
K

[QUOTE=Larry L.]Huh, didn't know there were "GENERATIONS" of animators.

Sure, there will always be the "Young Turks" - folks coming up who have decided they invented the artform. Heck, I was probably was one once. But I did ( and do) have a healthy respect for those who came before me (- and after me for that matter).

Hi Larry,

Allow me to explain what I meant by "new generation of animators":

A lot of animators today came through a different path to get to where they are, compare to someone who started out 10 or 20 years ago. They made their films at college in 3d and they didn't work on any 2d projects but they understand the basics of animation just the same. Some of them moved up to supervising positions in major studios without any professional drawing experience. If they choose to draw in their spare time, it's their choice but it is not a job requirement. I totally agree that drawing can help but it's not the only element in animation. You have to be able to act; have good sense of timing; understanding of movement etc.Without these skills you will never be a good animator no matter how well you draw. A bad animator who draws well is still a bad animator.

Try asking someone to keep drawing all day without doing any animation tests. I can guarantee that he or she will not automatically become a good animator.

I love drawing just as much as you do and I animated and supervised on a few 2d feature films as well as 3d films so I know a little bit about the business. "you only go as far in the industry as your drawing skills allow." just doesn't sound right to me in today's animation industry. There are a lot of good animators who didn't come from a drawing background and they deserve some respect.

-Paul

I understand your point, Paul.

I think if someone is starting out (which is where this thread started)- the straight scope would be.... learn to draw- it will be will better for you in the long run and in the short term. I think thats sound advice...my opinion.

And...you agree that drawing can help... then, why question it when someone else says it?

We are trying to help this person.

By the way, forget the 10-20 years, for me its been over 30 years in the industry.

Thanks.

hmmm I would say that drawing is fairly pointless as a starting point unless you want to be a 2d animator, and I would say training to be a 2d animator is pretty pointless unless you want to end up penny less and synichal (the guy who posted above me is probably a 2d animator)

what the ferk?!

observation is everything along with how you interpret those observations.

drawing is key to this process. so is sculpting. so is any other medium.

animation is animation regardless of medium. some mediums are better for some stories.

i myself produce work this way swapping from 3d, to puppet to drawn as and when the story demands.

but the one thing which is constant throughout is the pencil work.

so i will politely point out that you are talking out of your arse dude...

the fact you have met plenty of animators that cannot draw is a sad reflection of the industry. i have the same experiences. we are a dying breed.

but you know what, i am glad. because when ever i go for a job, when ever i am sat in a room with other animators, i know i am getting more work and more money, because i am traditionally trained.

my advice will always be, regardless of what type of creative you want to be, you should always have a foundation knowledge of the classical arts. painting drawing and sculpting...

And...you agree that drawing can help... then, why question it when someone else says it?

We question posts when they say that people can't get anywhere as an animator without the ability to draw, which we know for a fact to be untrue. Saying things like that highlights an ignorance with the state of modern top-tier animated filmmaking.

Anyone can make it far in the industry with simply a gift for bringing stuff to life and the opportunity to show it.

Hope this makes our objection clear...

Really!

We question posts when they say that people can't get anywhere as an animator without the ability to draw, which we know for a fact to be untrue. Saying things like that highlights an ignorance with the state of modern top-tier animated filmmaking.

Now theres some attitude for you...

I know from experience. The great majority of animators ARE artists. I'm not talking riggers, and modelers, etc.

Which kind of top tier animated filmmakers do you mean? Who? Where? What kind of work?

Like I said, I know hundred's that I have helped teach - and they are in their 20's and 30's working at Disney, Sony, Blend, Dreamworks, Lucas Arts, R and H, Digital Domain, etc., etc.

My so called "ignorance" has gotten a great many people jobs in major studios on major productions.

:D

Preach it brutha throe! :)

I understand your point, Paul.

By the way, forget the 10-20 years, for me its been over 30 years in the industry.

Thanks.

Hi Larry,

I never said I had been in the industry for 10-20 years- I've been around a lot longer than that.

-Paul

Attitude?

I wasn't giving you any attitude at all, and was very careful to direct my comments at no one person specifically. I did use a quote from your response to Paul but that was to answer your question.

I did use the word "ignorance", which you took as an acidic response, but it just means someone who doesn't know, right? I am ignorant of the finer point of molecular physics, for example... : P

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

We all absolutely agree that artistic ability is spiffy and ace and all that (as mentioned before), but what we're trying to do is highlight some of the inaccuracies posted on this thread, for the people who may be discouraged that their animation potential may be hindered by their drawing skills. That is simply not true in many cases.

I heartily encourage drawing, (do it!), but we should be careful to make the distinction between draughtsmanship and animation.

Cheers,
K

Wow.
Things are hopping in here. As a simpleton just browsing the majority of your replies I question, "why wouldn't animators be good drawers or artist". From what I read so far it goes with the job. Now my question is what is a good artist or what makes someone able to draw well? Everyone seems to have a different opinion on what is an animator- artist or technician. What I hear between the lines is a solid art foundation and the ability to self analyze and adaptation are key components to a person that calls themselves a animator. Whether or not they can draw well just defines how much farther they can go in the industry and how many doors will be open to them verses someone with the technical knowledge and no rudimentary drawing abilities.

The automobile mechanic and the animator followed a very similar path in the last 75 years. Both started off simple at the beginning, and over the years as each auto maker made their changes to the cars so did the mechanic have to change. As cars went from 4 cylinders to 8 and higher the mechanics knowledge had to increase to fix them. And just like in animation the unthinkable happened. Someone up and threw a computer in the dam thing.

Animator’s tools have changed but there must be a foundation of the simple things form, figure, balance, composition and just keep adding to the list. We all know someone that can carry a tune but are they a good singer? There is a recipe for a good singer just like there is for a good animator. Whose ears decide what is good? Can someone with good technical mechanics and a creative and new look break into the music scene? Brittany? Will they last? Time has shown us no. I see the same with animators whose abilities do not include continuous re-education and building a stronger artistic foundation on which to place all the changing technology.

Cars were meant to go from here to there. Animation is an artist medium on how to tell a story. Yet each have changed generations and continue to do so.

Hosser

Sorry Kevan,

No harm, no foul.

I apologize for being ignorant of your intentions.

I was kind of surprised by your response.

Didn't mean to scure you.... I am really sorry.

I guess you know how passionate I am about the artform and drawing.

Time to lighten up!

Really!

Now theres some attitude for you...

I know from experience. The great majority of animators ARE artists. I'm not talking riggers, and modelers, etc.

Which kind of top tier animated filmmakers do you mean? Who? Where? What kind of work?

Like I said, I know hundred's that I have helped teach - and they are in their 20's and 30's working at Disney, Sony, Blend, Dreamworks, Lucas Arts, R and H, Digital Domain, etc., etc.

My so called "ignorance" has gotten a great many people jobs in major studios on major productions.

:D

HI Larry,

Kevan was not talking about riggers and modelers either (although I have respect for them just the same.) He was talking about animators.They should be considered artists anyway whether or not they come from a traditional background.

As a teacher you have the duty to give the correct information about the industry to your students. If you don't even know there are top animators who DON'T come from a drawing background, how can you assist your students in preparing themselves for their future jobs? It's one thing to encourage people to draw but they also need to have a correct and up to date understanding of the industry they choose to get into.

Kevan is of one of the good examples of how non traditional animators can get very far- He made his cg student film at college and got attention from major studios. That was a few year ago and he has a few feature films in his resume now. There are also other good animators who used to be doing technical jobs but are now doing great animation on feature films. I'm sure you have seen their work on a big screen or dvds. Please have some respect for them and don't tell them they cannot go far in the industry because of their drawings.

-Paul

hey thanks victorthroe for clearing that out for me, i was kinda confused i think i'll first complete the acting for animators book then move on with my acting.

hi Wontobe, vts is the video tutorial service by kieth lango it really helps for selftought animator who can't afford animation mentor :D anyways here is the address keithlango.com

Cheers
Mandeep

Yea, but as instructors, I guess we don't have a responsibility to the industry, as well, to induct talent that's as fully fleshed out as possible.

Y'know.......so talent can know what to do when they are assigned a leadership position involving supervising artists that do, in fact, draw.
Or switching gears to another kind of animation, or perhaps even cartooning, should the talent so desire.
Lordy, what should we all do if some of these non-drawing talents want to attempt storyboarding, for example? I'm not 100% sure that vectors and polygons etc. will help with that....
It might be kind of handy to have a supervisor or director that can problem-solve a "DRAWING" ( Or image, or model, or a design) whose actually got some sound skills in that area. Not sure if a production can really place a lot of trust in someone that might have to........oh, say.........guess as to how to figure out a drawing or design problem (without passing it on to someone else). Hey, studios might even need to hire translators so that artists and non-artists can even understand each other's lingo. :rolleyes:
I used to keep a running count of the number of 3D students that don't know what a "dope sheet" is--the numbers got kinda high.

I mean, yes, we CAN short-change a students options by telling them they can avoid drawing classes, avoid art of any kind--or by not offering, advising, nudging or otherwise advocating that they become as well-rounded as possible. We can advocate year long courses where students just learn what the software does, and not actually do something with it--I mean all that other stuff takes up soooooo much time, and things like developing a eye for design, or even a design-sense.........pfft. Its all fluff, right? Maya does that for ya anyway..........somehow-we can whisper that in their ear.:rolleyes:
Heck, I guess the talent will just pick it up on their own--from the cosmic vibe in the air.

Nope, we can let human predilection to avoid the really challenging tasks take over and bring in people with limted skill-sets into pigeon-holed positions where they'll likely remain for their time in industry--however long that might be.
Hey, if we run out of people, maybe we can hire chimps--they have trouble drawing too, I guess.

I guess the animation biz does really need more peons than actual creators after all.....

I'm left scratching my head ( in the most sarcastic manner) as to which advice is the most "harmful" and what's really best serving people in all this.

I talked to an Animator, who chatted with an Art Director, who knows a Barista-- that makes coffee for Steve Jobs!!!

Okay, I'm a liar.

Splatman:D

I asked Steve Jobs to find out from a Barista who knows an Art Director that makes coffee for an Animator whether I need to have 2d experence to work for Pixar. He said no!

-Paul:D

Hello.

This thread began with a person looking for advice.

I gave my advice. I am a working animator who happens to teach not... the other way around.

PCF does not agree...fine. He seems to want to prop himself up with putting my approach down. (Hard to believe he is a director)

The fact that I stress drawing and that others don't is okay. I want the best for the person who wrote in and asked for advice - I gave my opinion.

You don't have to agree with it....but, I know what I said works.

PCF, you never answered my question "who, where, what kind of work".
You answers... except the stuff pointed at me are vague and unsubstantiated.

I can name names....and studios (which I did).

We question posts when they say that people can't get anywhere as an animator without the ability to draw, which we know for a fact to be untrue. Saying things like that highlights an ignorance with the state of modern top-tier animated filmmaking.

Anyone can make it far in the industry with simply a gift for bringing stuff to life and the opportunity to show it.

Hope this makes our objection clear...

Wow.

I think that is very TELLING of the state of "modern top-tier animated filmmaking".

It reminds me of when executives from Nickelodeon came to SCAD years back and said something similar.

It may be true... but it really shouldn't be.

Isn't there a level of craftsmanship and skill that should be required?

Can't you see the difference in quality between a traditionally trained animator and an animator that simply slides shapes and keyframes around a timeline? Do you understand what you're saying?

Sorry, I'm with Larry on this one. And I have a deep respect for you kevan, and I'm sure that is the stark reality, but I can't accept that.

Hey guys,

We're not arguing with you on the gist of the thread here, I think we're all in agreement about the importance of drawing, but we felt the need to point out is that you can still go far without super-amazing drawing skills. This is all we have a problem with.

to cartoonchaos...

I can see why you might think that a traditional background may make you a better animator, but experience has shown me that this is not necessarily the case. You cannot generalise in such a broad way, hence my desire to play devil's advocate on this thread.

Heh heh, yes I'm aware of what I am saying. You wouldn't say that I slide shapes keys around a timeline because I am not classically trained, would you? I approach my shot work in the same way as if I were wielding a pencil, just that my pencil is fatter and has cable and a little blinky LED in it.

Apologies to the poor chap who started this thread. In short, do what interests you and you'll be fine. :)

Cheers!
K

...are you sure he asked the right Barista!?!

(The tall one with the spotted eye-patch?)

Splatman:D

PFC just came and asked if he could use me as an example here, so I figured I'd step in myself and post something.

I agree with everyone.. (no, I'm not running for office). Drawing is important. But to be a good animator, ANIMATING is more important.

I come from a technical background.. yes, I've spent many years drawing, but my drawing skills are minimal. I can hack my way through a drawing, but it's difficult and painful.

Technically, I started as a rigger doing rigging & dynamics. I can't model for crap, or light to save my life. But I love making characters move, and I've got a keen sense and intuition on timing and motion.

Based on that, I practiced animating by doing exactly that.. ANIMATING.. making things move.. experimenting both in 2d and 3d animation. And got better by.. animating. I spent lots of time analyzing movement, weight, timing, etc.. and worked very hard to transfer that analysis into whatever medium I was working with.

The only thing that made me a better animator was actually making things move, seeing what worked and what didn't, and then fixing it to make it work better.

Doing this, I moved up quickly from junior animator, to regular animator, to senior animator, to now supervising animator.

My goal? To be a directing animator.

How will I achieve that goal? By continuing to animate, continuing to work with others to help THEM achieve THEIR goals.. not just by helping them animate better simply by drawing poses, but by also working with other technical departments to make the tools better.

See.. here's how *I* think you can go furthest in the industry:

1) To be the best animator you can be, you should be animating. It doesn't matter what medium. Just make stuff move and then make it move again. Study motion, thought, emotion, etc.

2) Learn as many ways as possible to express your intention, whether it's drawn, vocal, physical, etc. You have to be able to get your ideas across and make them understandable. Do it the fastest way you know how.

3) Learn what else is necessary in the departments surrounding yours to get the job done. What does layout do? How do they do it? What about riggers? What about finalling? What about lighting? What about compositing? What can you do with your job to make their job easier? Learn how to communicate and appreciate all the work they do.

4) Understand technically what is going on with whatever medium you're using, and look to discover ways of making it better. Learn how to always look to improve things.

5) Learn to work with others and learn from their animation, and take joy in their sucesses.

Do all that.. and you'll have the makings of a top player in the animation industry.

But to be the best animator.. the only thing that helps you do that is to start observing and start animating.

Everything else you learn is icing on the cake that can only make ya better.

Hi all! After having blundered around trying to settle on what career I'm going to go for I have settled on animation. I've always had a strong desire to create animation and be involved in it, but I have been clueless as to how to go about learning.

Anyhoo, I realise now that there is no such thing as the 'right' or 'wrong' way to go about learning something new, but I know that setting of on the right foot and learning things in a natural progression will bring about better results faster.

If I were a complete beginner (have had some experience in related areas) what things would you advise me to begin learning? should I start of doing life drawing studies? should I people watch and make notes? should I read books on acting? try to think of how you would have done it had you the chance to 'turn back the clock'.

Thanks a lot guys/gals, I would really appreciate any help that I get from you

A simple answer to your question would be to visit websites like Larry's:

http://tooninstitute.awn.com/main.html

And read through the tutorials and do some of the exercises. This will give you a feeling for construction, timing etc., those skills will be necessary to actually construct animation on your own.

We've had this conversation extensively before. (Now I know that any time I wish to speak with the Dreamworks animators, all I have to do is type "drawing is necessary.")

Isn't the conclusion simply that 2D animators rely on drawing more, and 3D animators rely on it less? (Although Doug Hertzfeldt just won the Grand Jury Award at Sundance, and he seems like he can barely hold a pencil.)

And maybe we can each speak for ourselves, rather than making sweeping generalizations like, "all animators must learn it the way I did."

[QUOTE=Ken Davis]Yea, but as instructors, I guess we don't have a responsibility to the industry, as well, to induct talent that's as fully fleshed out as possible.

Hi Ken,

I never advised anyone to not draw and never will. That's not the point I was making at all. In fact, I agree with a lot of things you said about drawing and how it can make you more versatile and able to move to other positions in the industry. I have no problem with that.

I am not talking about jobs in animation business but rather the job of being an animator. To me, animation itself is a skill and an art form that can be done through different medias- You can draw to animate; manipulate the character in the computer to animate or you can move the puppet with you bare hands. Animation skill does not equal Drawing skills (That shouldn't be read as "I don't like drawing!") A person who animate well is just as artistic as someone who draws well.

A lot of traditional animators moved to 3d from 2d and I went through that myself. I never touched a computer until I started my job as a directing animator in cg. My first week's training involved learning how to send an email and typing. I had no computer knowledge at all and my drawing skill was not needed anymore. All of a sudden I had to analyze everything more instead of just let it flow through my pencil- things like which part of the body moves first in certain action; where's the weight and how and when it transfers from one leg to another; when do you put that little frowning on the brows and how long do you keep it on to convey that emotion... I can go on and on. All that are animation skills. It's fine if you learn that through traditional animation, but it's equally possible for someone to learn animation via a different route. If they can come up with the results than they can go as far as they want to. I don't belong to that group myself but I see their work everyday and can tell you that they can animate just as well as a lot of other animators who were traditionally trained.

If I come across as someone who tells people not to draw, it's just miscommunication and that's not my intension at all. I just want to point out the importance of animation skills which is different from drawing skills or computer skills. If you see a bad 3d animators doing bad animation, chances are they can't animate. But don't blame it on their drawings.

-Paul

lol!

yeah, we should preface each reply with:

Great question! Here's what's worked for me...

That being said..drawing is HELLA fun, and it can't hurt you to learn it. :)

Draw.

Develop absolute top-notch drawing skills.
The rest is pretty much just technical stuff and procedures. Good, appealing drawing skills cannot be replaced.

Don't let this term "drawing" confuse you--tackle everything from character drawing to life-drawing, animal studies, various ways of rendering with just line.
Seek to be come a fully functional, or more-functional cartoonist/illustrator and you'll be headed in the right direction. Try everything from cartoon characters, to caricature to comic books........all that kind of drawing can help you.
Again, the actual animation process is more just procedural, the drawing part of the foundation of those procedures.

lol!

yeah, we should preface each reply with:

Great question! Here's what's worked for me...

That being said..drawing is HELLA fun, and it can't hurt you to learn it. :)

You're having fun, aren't you? I just checked out those coworkers drawings. I love the screaming Emilo. One question- are those two white circles on the sides his eyes or ears? I tried to imagine them both ways and couldn't decide which is funnier!

-Paul

cheers paul!

those are eyes.. the ears are lower. I should probably put some bags or something under 'em.. :)

PCF, you never answered my question "who, where, what kind of work".
You answers... except the stuff pointed at me are vague and unsubstantiated.

I can name names....and studios (which I did).[/QUOTE]

Hi Larry,

You asked that question to Kevan, not me.

Anyway, Jason kindly agreed that I could mention his name as an example of successful animators coming from a non drawing background. Please read his post. kevan is another one I mentioned.

If you really want to, you can even checked out all the animators on the credit list of any cg features. Do a search on their IMDB porfile if you like. You should be able to find out who has workded on 2d film or tv projects before.

There are only Four animators from where I work came from a 2d background.

I have no interest or right to change your opinions. Feel free to advise new comers to draw and I fully support that. It's only when you came up with sweeping statements like " you only go as far in the industry as your drawing skills allow." then I felt I needed to say something because it's not correct.

It's like if you tell me you like sushi and recommand a japanese restaurant to everone, it's ok. But if you say all sushi chefs used to be fishermen, then it's more than just an opinion.

-Paul

Hey guys,

We're not arguing with you on the gist of the thread here, I think we're all in agreement about the importance of drawing, but we felt the need to point out is that you can still go far without super-amazing drawing skills. This is all we have a problem with.

to cartoonchaos...

I can see why you might think that a traditional background may make you a better animator, but experience has shown me that this is not necessarily the case. You cannot generalise in such a broad way, hence my desire to play devil's advocate on this thread.

Heh heh, yes I'm aware of what I am saying. You wouldn't say that I slide shapes keys around a timeline because I am not classically trained, would you? I approach my shot work in the same way as if I were wielding a pencil, just that my pencil is fatter and has cable and a little blinky LED in it.

There's something that you get from animating traditionally. I'm not even sure if I can put it into words...

You have to admit... there is a difference between approaching your shot work with a computer which you can see in real time whether everything is working, and a light table where you flip every few drawings to see...

The luxury of having your characters pre-modeled and having the computer tween if you want... versus keeping your characters on model and judging and knowing whether to take a drawing out or add one in...

Isn't there a level of skill that you take with you when you go from traditional work to digital work? THAT'S what I mean when I say classically trained or sliding keyframes. I don't think that's generalizing... I think its what sets the good 3D animators apart from the "okay" ones that still go far. I'm not even sure I'm getting my point across...

I'll shut up and go back to Flash now... :D

Paul,

I as just trying to give some good advice.

Alot of folks who were originally in 2D have moved over to 3D. BUT THAT IS NOT MY POINT.

You don't have to do 2D animation to be a 3D animator.

In this very competitive market - the more you can bring to the table the better. My point is DRAWING is one of those elements.

Suggesting drawing does not make me out of touch. Drawing can make a person more marketable. As I mentioned earlier, the more arrows in your quiver the better your prospects.

I have heard of folks at Pixar who animate their work in 2D and work with others to place it into 3D.

At the college level, folks who start out in 2D seem to fare better. Why? Because they don't have to learn software immediately and can just jump into animating- those animation reps (pure footage) help them to attain a higher level, faster. Then it is easier to layer the software on top.

It's not the ONLY way- but it does work.

Paul,

I as just trying to give some good advice.

Alot of folks who were originally in 2D have moved over to 3D. BUT THAT IS NOT MY POINT.

You don't have to do 2D animation to be a 3D animator.

In this very competitive market - the more you can bring to the table the better. My point is DRAWING is one of those elements.

Suggesting drawing does not make me out of touch. Drawing can make a person more marketable. As I mentioned earlier, the more arrows in your quiver the better your prospects.

I have heard of folks at Pixar who animate their work in 2D and work with others to place it into 3D.

At the college level, folks who start out in 2D seem to fare better. Why? Because they don't have to learn software immediately and can just jump into animating- those animation reps (pure footage) help them to attain a higher level, faster. Then it is easier to layer the software on top.

It's not the ONLY way- but it does work.

Thanks Larry for making things clear.

I agree with everything you said here and that last line sums it up perpectly for me. Eventhough we see things differently at times, I do have a lot of respect for yourself and people like Ken who have passion for animation and are willing to spend time to help others. It can only be good.

-Paul

After having blundered around trying to settle on what career I'm going to go for I have settled on animation

call me mr cynical but are you sure about this career path

its terribly boring for anyone but the absolute die hard

hmmm I would say that drawing is fairly pointless as a starting point unless you want to be a 2d animator, and I would say training to be a 2d animator is pretty pointless unless you want to end up penny less and synichal (the guy who posted above me is probably a 2d animator)

I suggest you learn to be a computer animator, as there is a lot of work in this field and the demand for computer animation is likely to expand as computer and console games get more advanced. Plus all the kids shows that are now being done in 3d is a trend that I think will continue.

I would say a good starting point is to download a trial version of one of the
3d packages, Maya or 3d Studio Max are, I think the most commonly used. then download a rigged model, you can find them probably on this forum or just do a search, there not difficult to find. Then just have a bit of a play, you will be able to get more advice here.

If you like it I suggest you go study somewhere your likely to learn much much faster, with a bunch of other people around and a teacher to learn from.

Going back to the drawing thing, people go on about this alot. It is not neccasary to be able to draw to be an animator, I have met more animators that cannot draw for toffee than I have animators that can. I have worked with a programmer, that taught himself to animate when the studio was short staffed and he was better than some animators who were working on the team.

What drawing will do for you: drawing will give you an edge because it forces you to look at the world in a different way. If you are to produce a good drawing you will need to understand its weight its character its volume, you will have to draw what is there, rather than what you think is there.

Having skill in drawing, gives you an I for detail, and trains your eye to pick up on the subtleties which will feed your animation skill.
Having said that no amount of brilliant drawing will get you a job as an animator, only good animation will get you a job as an animator.

no one disputes that the industry is full of people animating who cant draw.

but drawing helps

and with almost 100% of the time, those championing an alternative route into animation other than drawing and the classical arts are people who cannot draw

we have taken issue with is the idea being put forward of the lack of traditional skills being a hindrance to modern animation career success.

it is a hidrance dude. get 2 people going for the same job and they are both identicly skilled animators with the same showreel and the one with the additional drawing folio will get the work every time

if that aint a hindrance then i dont know what is

im sorry if there is a whole swayth of 'new age' animators coming from wholely digital schools with no emphasis on classic arts who are offended by this. im sorry of i have offended people who are artistically challenge in the pencil arena, but tough.

if you want to be an animator, learn to draw.

observation is everything

if you dont want to draw, fine... but dont preach that foolish approach to others in the same way we dont preach riding a motorbike after a few pints of the good stuff

sure you will do some good wheelies but in the end you could end up eating a lamp post

whilst i am on it

i will bet my left nut that nearly all the animators who cant draw have never worked to a bar chart too

whats a bar chart?...

cretins...

Having said that no amount of brilliant drawing will get you a job as an animator, only good animation will get you a job as an animator.

I'm going to be the wet blanket here and say this just isn't true.

Sorry to contradict, but in my 21+ years in the animation biz, I can tell you that solid drawing skills........solid art skills can land a person work.

Now, my caveat here is that it may not be as a animator per se, but there's lots of very closely associated tasks right alongside animation.
Good drawing skills are an asset.
Its not just a "eye for detail" thing, its a whole mindset of aesthetics regarding appeal, structure, design, and a great deal of internal visualization ability. This is what drawing brings and why drawing is considered a fundemental foundation skill.

Sure, the talent may not be work with a pencil, but they will more than likely be calling upon their artistic skills in the course of their job.
Besides, drawing ability is an asset, and going into a endeavour like this a person wants all the assets then can get in their corner.
If someone wants to go about it half-assed then they'll find their results to be accordingly similar.
The reasoning is sound here: if you want to be prepared should your position evolve or even dissappear, having art skills to fall back on is a smart thing.
If you want to progress before your starting position, having additional skills is essential.
So, why skimp drawing?

You'll get differing opinions on this, but the bottom line is that the superior talents working in either medium 2d/3D have sound drawing ability.
Accept no substitutions.

I'm going to be the wet blanket here and say this just isn't true.

Sorry to contradict, but in my 21+ years in the animation biz, I can tell you that solid drawing skills........solid art skills can land a person work.

Now, my caveat here is that it may not be as a animator per se, but there's lots of very closely associated tasks right alongside animation.

erm...... havent you just agrred with me there? wont get you a job as an animator per se ???

If you want to be a concept artist or a illustrator Ken is quite right drawing skills will come in very handy

it is a hidrance dude. get 2 people going for the same job and they are both identicly skilled animators with the same showreel and the one with the additional drawing folio will get the work every time

if that aint a hindrance then i dont know what is

Well, yeah, and if two identical animators showed up but one had better posture, then the guy with the good posture would get the job. That doesn't mean that good posture is necessary to become a good animator.

By the way, since two identical animators showing up at a studio with the same showreel is an impossibility, nobody is being "hindered" by such a scenario.

You might be able to get a job pushing pixels as a game animator, or a rigger without drawing skills, maybe........but what if you get bored doing that?
Suppose someone wants to strike off on their own, or take a better position that requires more background--say more design sense.......what then?
Limited skills means you can easily be pigeon-holed....and animation is NOTORIOUS for pigeon-hole-ing talent.

Because I started out with a background that was more cartooning and comics based, my own career has run the gamut from animation, assisting, inbetweening, clean-up, storyboard, comics, illustration, design, inking, lettering.....and even all those tasks can be considered to be quite "niche" in the overall skill-set.

Personally, I advocate someone trying to become as fully-functional as they can. The more you can do, the better the chance you'll be around long enough to make a career out of it.

Animation isn't a carrer that you should "settle on" ElusiveDreams. Like Victor said, the act of animating is very borring. Sure it's fun, esspecially when you see you characters come to life, but 90% of it is tedious work making sure things are clear, and tracking right. It's a lot of hard work and late nights.

Animation also isn't something that you can learn in a few months or a year. Well, you can, but it will take years of hard work to become fairly decent where studios will hire you. So if you are going to do this as a carrer, be sure you are willing to be in it for the long haul.

What drawing will do for you: drawing will give you an edge because it forces you to look at the world in a different way. If you are to produce a good drawing you will need to understand its weight its character its volume, you will have to draw what is there, rather than what you think is there.

Having skill in drawing, gives you an I for detail, and trains your eye to pick up on the subtleties which will feed your animation skill.
Having said that no amount of brilliant drawing will get you a job as an animator, only good animation will get you a job as an animator.

I don't understand. Why wouldn't you want these things as an animator?

I know quite a few computer animators and all the best one draw really well. Drawing is vital to any form of animation, and esspecially computer animation. Yes, as a computer animator, your drawings won't be up on the screen, but there is something about drawing that helps when your brain is stuck on a shot.

Aloha,
the Ape

Im not sure if Im reading that right chaos but it seems as though you are you are suggesting 2d animation is more difficult.

I think 3d animation can be harder than 2d. With computer animation the finish has more realism than 2d has, because of this you expect the animation... I dont know, not necesarrily to be more realistic but any indescrepancies seem more obvious with 3d.

Because the finish is more constant you dont have the same difficulty with for instance maintaining volume in your drawing. But because the volume is accurate and also has realistic shadows and lighting I think the viewer expects more of a 3d animation than a 2d animation in terms of accuracy.

I actually just saw a video where an animator whose work is largely computer-based talked about the importance of thumbnailing characters you're going to work on. Not only them being identifiable as the character, but elaborately enough to distinguish between the different types of acting you'd like to portray.

You can't do that with the drawings of a 10-year-old. You'll need to know something then. To add to Ken's advice (with Ken's advice) you wouldn't be hurting yourself to shake up the variety -within- the niche of drawing talent, in terms of what you practice drawing from: memory, imagination, observation, and indirect observation like photos and video, etc.

it is a hidrance dude. get 2 people going for the same job and they are both identicly skilled animators with the same showreel and the one with the additional drawing folio will get the work every time

As Harvey says, this cannot in fact happen. Maybe a case of split personality....

If you dont want to draw, fine... but dont preach that foolish approach to others in the same way we dont preach riding a motorbike after a few pints of the good stuff

Have you read any of the other posts where we're all in agreement on the whole drawing thing, but that one cannot make sweeping generalisations about this stuff?

i will bet my left nut that nearly all the animators who cant draw have never worked to a bar chart too

whats a bar chart?...

cretins...

I made a bar chart in Microsoft Excel once. I didn't use it for animation though.
I think I may be a cretin.

: (

hi, its a great discussion thread going on but i havent seen much more than discussion on the life drawing for new age animators in 3d ..........

well for the change of things... can senior members share their work flow which one they prefer and abt the acting tips how much time should one apend on poses before touching the computer

cheers
Mandeep

"Never tell Ken that drawing is pointless!" Splatman screamed, as he put on his helmet and dove into the ditch...

Seriously though, you may not see the importance of drawing in how it's related to 3D...and jobs in 3D. But really, it can't hurt now, could it?

Well, I suppose you could trip and fall on your pencil. That would hurt, but I digress...

Now I'm rambling, and I've forgotten my initial point...but anyhoo, if I was a 3D guy that could also draw, I'd be an asset for hire, no?

Eh!
Splatman:D

"Never tell Ken that drawing is pointless!" Splatman screamed, as he put on his helmet and dove into the ditch...

You were supposed to dive behind the sandbags, soldier. The stinky stuff is in the ditch. Drop, gimme 20!

i will bet my left nut that nearly all the animators who cant draw have never worked to a bar chart too

whats a bar chart?...

cretins...

Wow! I didn't know it would come down to this-Let's do a "who is a cretin test!"

I think I have seen a bar chart before so maybe I'm not a cretin. But wait! Was it called a bar sheet? Are they the same thing? How about x sheet and dope sheet? I must remember to say "dope" in England and "x" in US. What about spreadsheet? Which chart is the one that you put on the corner of your key drawings? Can you put a bar chart on your drawings or should it be a timing chart? Somebody please help me!

I'm all confused and maybe I am a cretin after all.

Since I mentioned that I know animators who came from a different background, I must be seen as someone who is championing an alternative route into animation other than drawing and the classical arts. As a result, I belong to the 100% of the people who can't draw( or 100% of the time?)

Since I can't draw, I can't animate.

That's depressing. :(

-Paul

I'm just a student but I definitely count as a senior member.

Do everything you can before you get to the computer. If it's within your control, have an answer for every question before you have to ask yourself. If you don't have a deadline, keep thinking, keep drawing, keep revising until they "work" for you. If you do have a deadline, don't spend too long that you run into problems completing the "end product" steps. I've seen people, albeit very few, spend a few seconds committing to their decisions and jumping right in and it works. I've also seen, on a deadline, people spend 40% of their time planning, and then hauling arse for the rest of it and it looks stupendous.

hey thanks ScatteredLogical, Dave and victorthroe for your valuable advice

i get it now, its depends on the person wat makes him work faster ...... i was also confused on a couple of things as in learning animation do most of the animators use wacom's....... to draw or animate coz i think its easy to draw that way ??

And one more thing is it okay to copy actings done by artists like ronan atkinson and jim carry etc to sharpen ur acting in animation .... coz i m at a stage where i have done body mechanics nd i m kinda strugling with the acting part (actually i m a selftought animater(mainly by ASK,cartoon animationnd timing for animation, recently got vts subscription :) ) ....

Cheers
Mandeep

...ditch...I was going to say "fighting hole", which is what we used to say in the Corps (simply to differentiate from the Army's "fox hole") but I figured no one would get it!

Alas!

Splatman:D

Im not sure if Im reading that right chaos but it seems as though you are you are suggesting 2d animation is more difficult.

I think 3d animation can be harder than 2d. With computer animation the finish has more realism than 2d has, because of this you expect the animation... I dont know, not necesarrily to be more realistic but any indescrepancies seem more obvious with 3d.

Because the finish is more constant you dont have the same difficulty with for instance maintaining volume in your drawing. But because the volume is accurate and also has realistic shadows and lighting I think the viewer expects more of a 3d animation than a 2d animation in terms of accuracy.

Then why do most 3d characters look like plastic tub toys?