How would you improve these forums?

Recently, there has been much criticism of the forums and how they're run.

I know I'm not the only one here with ideas. What are yours?

Good post Harvey. It'll be interesting to hear what members would like to see.

There've been criticisms of the Forums?

What are your ideas Harvey?

Mahalo,
the Ape

How about mandatory fields in the profile being filled in before membership is granted. Didn't see that in the poll. I suggest making the location tag mandatory, just so we can tell what time zone folks are in, or what market they are trying to break into. Seems relevant to me.

I'd agree with the swf embedding, but even on Flashkit that had to be abandoned because of bandwith.

As for the Desktop Tony has always been great even though he doesn't show up much. I don't think it should be discontinued.

I think the Educator's forum should be renamed to something like Animation Education, so students feel they are included, and all those what's the best school etc. threads end up there so that those that have recently attended or taught can answer them.

Embedded images can always be handled with image tags and outside hosting, not a big issue.

I agree the contest forum is poorly laid out, but that had to do with the early days of AWN when Larry didn't even know how to post a picture, and I think a single contest forum would work out now.
At one time I suggested a renaming so some of us could mount challenges or "battles". I thought it happened, but didn't see much activity there since, except for spam.

I disagree with Larry about the sticky for 3d vs 2d (computer vs handdrawn). It needs to be up there just so it doesn't crop up new every few days.

As far as swearing I don't think we do a lot of it here. I have used sh*t, and as*, but I think those things are tame now adays.

Animated smilies...I can live without them. It's just one more thing I have to download on dialup.

My two cents.

Pat

While I do like the forums as is, if there's going to be a rehaul along these lines...

Blue happens to be my favorite color but this site and its forums do hold a lot of distinction so just something besides default would be very refreshing. No to holidays and every forum gets the same look.

I'd enjoy a challenge of creating new smilies but it's beyond me, having not used this board software for almost a year now, how to get that implemented.

If Phacker's right and there are still quite a few people on dial-up I wouldn't like to see them in a scenario where ginormous Flash files swamp their connection unawares, but that's rectified by the onus being on the users to let people know what's inside the thread.

Show and Tell combine with Daily Sketch. Desktop goes. Education combine with Business (but making that clear in its name). Contest goes.

One thing I can't stand is a forum where there are so many stickies that the actual threads that would be on the first page get pushed way out of the way. Keep it to maybe 5 or less, or if it's possible give them a smaller font.

Sarcasm's OK but swearing reminds me of working in a furniture store. When I'd come in and the people before me hadn't picked up after the area, customers would just crap out trash and leave it there with no cares. When I was there and it was kept clean, people didn't dare mess with it. Swear words are only effective when used with the utmost reserve for emphasis anyhow, so it would be nice if on a board of professionals and aspiring artists if people could reel it in. Class isn't a hard thing to achieve and on the whole real-live animators I find are classy people when it comes to their public images.

Drawing challenges would be sweet. On another forum I go to there's a single (albeit huge) thread where the original poster acts as an informal mod and each week changes the topic of what is to be drawn on the first post of the thread. The rest of said thread is people's responses in the form of drawings. It's wonderful to see the styles and interpretations.

I don't think it's realistic to have that frequent of Q&As. I'd rather see twice a month with good solid people who have time to answer outside their regular work hours.

A list is like an FAQ. You can make it, but they will ignore it. At best either or both would be most effective as a sticky itself. (Why not try and get a consensus for some of the things we're trying to have sticky threads for, and include that in a singular FAQ? Usenet-style.)

Harvey had a good idea with his rules idea, but what about calling it guidelines and including something to the effect that when posting links you specify the size and format. With my old computer and dialup connection I wait for long periods and then find out the format is incompatible and I can't watch it anyway. I usually burn them and watch them on a friends newer unit anyway, but it would be nice to know before I tie my old trusted friend up for sometimes hours just to learn I can't view the file.

And quicktime users be aware a lot of us can't view the newer quicktime formats. (Ape your's are some I can't view.)

The other rules and guidelines I guess are up to AWN's administration to mandate. I'll live up to them if I can. Can't swear that a sh*t or some other little expletive won't force itself out of my subconscious from time to time.

I am a Navy brat, and mother was a Master Sargeant in the WAACs. I grew up around it, it was part of the vernaculer.

This is a good post but I have no complaints about the site. I just wish there were more posting about animation, really hard to find information.

If there aren't any complaints, then there isn't really a problem. Just providing my thoughts.

I guess when I was conceptualizing a Flash-friendly upload system here, the difference is one of totality. I wasn't thinking about cutout and symbol work, more like each frame drawn traditionally, and that can pile up almost as if it were midway to being a video. So the file size would be in a separate scope from the other extensions.

The other thing I was assuming in my mind, is that from experience, loaders are pretty much non-existent. Images can be stopped or worked around either manually or within software but if the forum had a system for embedding SWFs, I don't know in what manner it would display the SWFs, if their removal or hiding would be treated just as the images are (especially since more often than not a different tag is utilized). What you get then is missing the beginning of the animation (though not exclusive to the format) or a bunch of sounds going off unwarranted, especially if there are more than one on the page. I personally don't have a problem with either scenario even though it's kind of sloppy but I'm trying to think about others in the readership who might be coming into this with other circumstances.

I've only really heard three complaints about it in the year plus I've been around.

I am not sure how bandwidth is counted by the server, but I do know that when I joined Flashkit we all had swf footers, now they are outlawed. And swfs are only allowed as a download for those that want to view them. And that includes those swfs that are linked to main pages to outside Flaskit's hosted isp. I don't think it's just the size of the file but the number of times it's downloaded that actually counts. So it's not a matter of what you guys like to call "frame by frame" animation, but rather the total bandwith traffic.

I think if AWN could have made it available they would have a long time ago.

How do you think these pages would load if you were allowed to embed quicktime and Winmedia files. I wouldn't be able to view them. That slows traffic and inhibits ad sales. But you guys in school on broadband could probably do it, but what ads would you click on, and how much would you buy?

I don't think it's just the size of the file but the number of times it's downloaded that actually counts. So it's not a matter of what you guys like to call "frame by frame" animation, but rather the total bandwith traffic.

The number of times something is downloaded isn't relevant unless file size is an issue. I don't "like" to call something where each frame is drawn out by hand "frame by frame," that is just what it happens to be. That said, if you did that versus something more economical like symbols and the like, the file size would balloon, so it very much would be a matter.

.

How about a compromise, Sajdera. Keep the colors, get a simple background in here. Anything to have it not look like every other out of the box version of the software.

I've voted.

I'd say combine AWN Show and Tell with Daily Sketch and have a new Daily Sketch thread in there every day, change the Educator's Forum to Education Forum so people can post from both perspectives. I'm torn on combining the Animation Cafe and Desktop as they do overlap in subjects sometimes. These last two are the forums I head to most. I admit Desktop has seen better days and used to be so much more useful.

Hope this helps,
Claire.

Well, I have not been here long so I may have a different perspective than you old timers. I am really active in online forums, probably due to my career (I'm a UI engineer/Interaction Designer). I've been a moderator on a couple forums too.

The first thing that makes any forum great is participation. If people bring up good topics and there is good discussion around it you'll have a good forum. So I think anything along those lines that fosters participation helps your forum.

In that light, I think the contests are always a good idea. The problem is always getting someone to run them, judge them and so forth - and of course getting people to participate. They can't be seen as a no-chance deal because there are too many talented people, so you have to be creative about the contests, too.

I had asked about the spam earlier, and that goes along with the moderators cracking down a bit. I completely understand the mods have lives and they cannot be here 24/7. Sounds to me like you guys need more moderators, and you seem to have lots of experienced folks here to choose from.

The problem with spam in your forum like it is, is that it makes it look like it is an old or unused/little used forum - like nobody cares to deal with it because there is not enough activity. When new users see that, they think it might not be worth signing up. So I actually think it is pretty important to stay on top of that stuff, and that while forum members can help by tagging that stuff, it's really up to the mods to make sure it doesn't keep happening. If the spammers see their stuff getting whacked immediately all the time, they give up. I honestly do not see this problem in any of the other forums I hang in, and I hang around quite a few. So it might just be a manpower issue.

One thing I see as a shortcoming here is work that is shown and commented on. If you could somehow make the "show and tell" section more prevalent, that would help - but I think the problem is the section is labeled wrong.

Feedback is *really* important - especially when you work alone. In the Hash Animation:Master forums, they have a WIP (Work in Progress) section and a Showcase (finished work) section, which are very well participated in, and that is really helpful. I think you really ought to split up show and tell into those two.

This gives people a place to both see what others are working on (and help out if they want - or get help) and a place to see finished works. It also gives people a place to subscribe to a thread and follow someones work to completion they like.

Animation is really a collaborative beast - Frank and Ollie talk about that in their book right off the bat - even if it was combative sometimes, it's still very helpful to have your work bantered about. And fun. I know I would like to see more of what you all are working on.

That's my two cents.

Actually the Daily Sketch forum started out in Show and Tell and Dan thought after some time that it deserved a forum of it's own. It's actually more of a portfolio, current work type thing than Show and Tell. A place where each contributor can showcase their work over time.

Yeah, I saw that forum. A sketch book is one thing though, a WIP thread on one particular project you are working on is something else. Maybe these forums are too general for that, I don't know.

I wasn't discounting your interest in a WIP forum, just explaining to the folks that want it combined back with the Show and Tell forum. Maybe it should be renamed something like "galleries".

Maybe something like Galleries, then, but that breaks down into work people are showing off and work he or she wants critiqued.

I think a more immediate problem is the Desktop. Out of the fourteen posts on the first page, nine are spam at the moment and there are unanswered posts. I think Tony needs some help.

It's just Tony and the invisible Dan over there. Do I hear volunteers?

If you're talking about large files slowing down page load time, I can't imagine that it's an issue for most people.

It's not just the slow loading of pages, I am sure it's a bandwidth issue for AWN and their host. They get charged for bandwidth usage. And when images are embedded on their host, that raises their usage. The more popular a site becomes the more important optimization is to curtail additional costs.

Feedback is *really* important - especially when you work alone. In the Hash Animation:Master forums, they have a WIP (Work in Progress) section and a Showcase (finished work) section, which are very well participated in, and that is really helpful. I think you really ought to split up show and tell into those two.

This gives people a place to both see what others are working on (and help out if they want - or get help) and a place to see finished works. It also gives people a place to subscribe to a thread and follow someones work to completion they like.

I like this idea and have seen it in action on other forums. I think splitting finished work from works in progress will garner a different reaction and will help to make the comments more focused. Sometimes you just want to show your work and not have it critiqued.

I think a more immediate problem is the Desktop. Out of the fourteen posts on the first page, nine are spam at the moment and there are unanswered posts. I think Tony needs some help.

It's just Tony and the invisible Dan over there. Do I hear volunteers?

I visit the forums a lot, so I'd be willing to volunteer to help get rid of spam. :)

As far as layout and colors are concerned, I like it the way it is. It's simple and easy to navigate, especially when going through so much information. Our avatar pictures help to liven things up, and people can decorate their posts with different fonts and colors if they choose. I just don't see much need for change in this area. I also agree with a larger selection of smilies, but I wouldn't mind animated ones.

I see that the contest thing is building up a lot of votes, well seven (7) but it did bring one thing up in my mind. What good is a contest if no one participates, there have been contest and only one drew something.

I am not sure what contest you're talking about Wontobe, but most of the contests have been widely participated in. The Contest forum does need a revamping, it was a mess from the beginning.

Finally, I would create the Spam Forum, where all spammers could go to sell all kind SIDEKICK, NOKIA, IPOD, MOTOROLA. We want assure you never regret buy from us, so we are give you privrage of buy two get one free, so you get back us with happy good business relationship.

LMAO!!!! Thats too funny. Thanks for making my day Harvey.

Mahalo,
the Ape

Spam forums don't work they've been tried and failed.

Challenge threads would be awesome. Competition helps foster creativity in me many times, and I'd fight like the dickens to improve to come out on top. I think anything that's functional rather than just about writing opinions and such helps make a forum more autonomous...there's already this feeling of a split between here and the main site.....might as well make it stand on its own to the fullest extent, which oddly would be a major support to the main site.

Just to document that some of us tried to get this going:

http://forums.awn.com/showthread.php?t=3179

I think it would be great if things got straightened out a little more to make it easier. It's a great idea and needs to happen.

The change in title only took four months. How long to make it fully functional?

The heading is different but you still can't start a new contest, as far as I know.

If one of the techs could tell us how to open a new contest or challenge. I can't figure it out and I've been around boards for a while.

I would second Harvey's points - it was basically what I was getting at as well. Harvey, I would nominate you for one mod.

The key to improving the forums is really to recruit some good moderators. If the current moderators aren't interested or are too busy, then add moderators until the job is getting done.

These should be people who
A) have been on the forums for a year or so,
B) are diplomatic and keep an even temper,
C) have good ideas on how to improve the forums, and
D) can devote a few minutes each day to keeping the forums in order.

It would also be nice if they had a comprehensive understanding of animation, whether through work or study.

Until we get some self-motivated moderators, I don't see the forums going anywhere.

Whom should we draft?

I'm interested. AWN has been very good to me and it would be nice to give something back. :D

I would second Harvey's points - it was basically what I was getting at as well. Harvey, I would nominate you for one mod.

I wouldn't. Sorry Harvey but you are too fast to hit the ignore button. As a mod, you can't just ignore people you disagree with.

Sharvonrique would be a good choice. Scattered would be a good choice also.

Eveyone has to measure where posts were made, and to whose benefit. Creating arguments is one thing, adding something worthwhile to a discussion is something else, and being understanding and reasonable with the main enrollment is a big plus.

Ape is a diplomat that's what makes him a great mod.

Scattered has shown that side, if he agreed, I'd support him too. Sharvonique maybe pretty new around here but I'd support her/him also.

My core is diplomatic, yes, and that's what I'd stick to if I were made a moderator.

However, even though I'm capable of reeling in my opinions, they're still there in whatever way that might affect things. I also post almost exclusively to the Cafe, and while the post count is way up there, the average per day isn't super-high because I've had 3 spots in the past 14 months where I didn't see a lick of these forums for -weeks- from attending two schools simultaneously.

If everyone else agreed to me, I would consider it a privileged duty, but given the points above and the screening process, it's probably smartest to leave me as a last resort.

And I don't have a problem with Harvey being a mod at all. He's an adult so it's not like he's gonna scream wild and knock over the lamps, and if he winds up quick to press the buttons, it sounds like more people can accept the collateral damage in order to have things done right.

I wouldn't. Sorry Harvey but you are too fast to hit the ignore button. As a mod, you can't just ignore people you disagree with.

Sharvonrique would be a good choice. Scattered would be a good choice also.

Thanks, Pat! :D

Which forum would you like to be the moderator of, Sharvon; and what would you like to do for that forum?

You've made 200 posts in the past 4 years - an average of one post per week - which leads me to suspect that you wouldn't be around that often.

Ouch! I'm actually here several times a day. I just don't post that often, especially when someone else has alraedy said something that I was going to say. I actually post when I feel I have something of value to contribute.

I guess I could be viewed as newcomer because of my number of posts, but I've been around here a loooong time. I visit all the forums, but I tend to hang out in the cafe and business forums the most, so I'd probably be useful in those areas. I would pretty much just try to answer people's questions and to get rid of spam. (I feel like I'm campaining!)

I also hope that Ape and the other mods don't see the discussion of adding more mods as an insult to their work. I think we all understand that you guys are busy, but we also see that you need some help.

Shar I don't think you have to answer Harvey's question, just where does he want to be a moderator, the Cafe...if so I'll be banned before I blink.

If all a candidate intends to do is delete spam, the only forum that could really use a new moderator is Desktop; unless someone wants to talk Dan into starting that new drawing sessions forum some of us have proposed.

I wasn't actually pitching myself, and by "stick to" I meant how I conducted myself, not the duties involved.

Is the drawing sessions forum the one with the challenges?

You can draw plans against someone or draw swords...maybe something cheeky in that light? If it's challenges? Perhaps that's too corny =P

If the mod builds the head-to-head thread, what is the protocol? People PM them asking to go against some person? That's probably covered in some of those links but I'm curious if it'd directly translate when we do it.

I've even seen challenges that were...strangely specific. Mostly around character designs. For example, "Draw a cowboy with a cumbersome disability." "Reinvision your favorite cartoon character as a human being trying to retain their personality by their body language and expression."

And I don't have a problem with Harvey being a mod at all. He's an adult so it's not like he's gonna scream wild and knock over the lamps, and if he winds up quick to press the buttons, it sounds like more people can accept the collateral damage in order to have things done right.

Not something I want to accept offhand.

As far as design challenges maybe Dan will get his techs to work on the contest forum, that's where it needs to be, but much easier to use then it is now.

I just remembered something, I would love it is the cookie could be fixed in a way so that they do not reset the same day I am viewing the forum. The new post keep resetting before I am through going through the new posts.

If people around here cared more about animation and less about being right, the forums would be fine. With a few exceptions, I've been finding these boards to be much more annoying than helpful.

One out of a hundred people actually comment on anything that's actually related to the topic, and usually it comes in the form of Moses sending down word from the mountain. And if you question their athority, they just pretend not to notice. One distinctly gets the impression that they started out doing things the way they do because they were told to, and haven't given it much thought one way or another. Everyone else seems to be staring at the screen with their mouths hanging open most of the time.

The actual purpose of these boards has shifted from animation to either gloating about one's illustrious career (real or imagined) or just plain old sniping. And there's very little a moderator can do about this type of situation.

Classes start at VFS on Monday. So I'm going to do my part to improve these boards by taking a long vacation from them so I can focus on animation.

I can say as a new member, that I pretty much agree DrSpecter's assessment. I didn't really want to come out say something like that as a new person, but he is right.

I joined this forum hoping to get in on some good animation discussion, both about projects people were working on themselves as well as the animation field in general.

The first thing I've noticed is that there isn't much conversation here about animation work, and not many people showing work, which is really surprising. I was really hoping for a forum where there was a lot of work being shown, critiqued and talked about.

Basically I come here each day, click on "new posts" and see mostly the same old stuff. First, spam. (Of the top 5 new posts today [since my last visit] 3 are spam.) The spam issue is kind of separate, but I don't see this problem on *any* other forum I spend time in, and I frequent a fair amount regularly. Maybe one question about a school, and maybe one thread about actual animation. Possibly someone flash animation, and that is all.

When I first got here I posted a 3d animation I did here, as well as the first 2d project I did in school in the Show and Tell section. People, I got zero responses. Not a single one. Now this is finished work, and one of them is old, but man in an online forum *about animation* I would have expected SOME kind of commentary.

I'd love for this to be a place where people show projects, share commentary and tips and help each other out, and talk about the animation field. Maybe this forum doesn't have the right type of people, or enough of them, I don't know. But so far since I have been here there has been very little for me to pay attention to.

The sniping issue I cannot attest to much, since I just got here, but I have seen a bit of it. And I have definitely been the victim of some "looking down the nose" attitude.

Maybe all the people doing work are in the forums specific to their product. I know when I was doing my animating in Hash, I spent all my time there (I didn't know about this forum at that time.)

So one thing I would say - if you are an animator and doing work, let's see it. And if you are in the field and can help with *constructive* criticism and technical help, then help.

Cheers

Tom

(happy birthday, Jabber)

(Merci.)

In my experience, it's mostly boards made up of tightly-knit groups sharing a very specific interest that will generate the most satisfying discussion. Animation is a broad field. It's much easier for fans to contribute to topics like "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" or "Star Wars" simply because all discussion is based on some sort of common canon which doesn't exist in animation as such.
If AWN had forums dealing in detail with various styles and techniques, people might know more easily where they and their interests belong - though there is a danger of stronger polarization and flame wars between, say, the 3D Forum and the 2D Forum. (Well, not like we haven't already got that.)

Jabber might be right, and I was kind of getting at that with the suggestion that maybe people are gathering in their software forums instead (like Hash forums). But maybe more specific forums would help. Like...

2d Animation WIP
2d Animation Showcase (finished projects)
3d WIP
3d Showcase
Stop motion, etc.
2d Animation techniques
3d ""
etc